# Is there an optimistic take on evolution when discussing it with kids **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 2, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-optimistic-take-on-evolution-when-discussing-it-with-kids/713973 "2015-03-02T01:50:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-optimistic-take-on-evolution-when-discussing-it-with-kids/713973/41 "2015-03-02T17:52:55Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Horniness frequently makes fools of us human guys, but apparently we’re pikers compared to male octopi. You don’t find it brilliant that they’re the only species who have worked out how to avoid having to follow their dicks everywhere through life? I’m inspired. ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-optimistic-take-on-evolution-when-discussing-it-with-kids/713973/42 "2015-03-02T18:11:00Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > There is one particularly aggressive form of octopus that got eaten so often - the argonaut - that they developed a detachable penis. They literally throw this detachable penis at the female and run like hell - a literal version of “Go fuck yourself”. Then they regrow that. That is the best thing I’ve read in weeks, thank you! ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-optimistic-take-on-evolution-when-discussing-it-with-kids/713973/43 "2015-03-02T19:48:48Z")
To go back to the original question: - forget the idea that “survival of the fittest” means survival depends on fighting: rather, it’s a matter of “survival of the best-adapted” (and if you want to draw an implication for the individual from that, focus on the idea that success depends on understanding the world and how to make the best of themselves) - don’t assume evolution or anything else has to have an immanent purpose or morality: that comes from us - life has the point and moral purpose that we choose to give it. Both of those, it seems to me, open up the mind to all sorts of positive possibilities: show the child how to find out about all the opportunities that might be available to them, and how to adapt and prepare themselves to make the best use of those opportunities, and about what they think good and bad are and how good should be encouraged in this world. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-optimistic-take-on-evolution-when-discussing-it-with-kids/713973/44 "2015-03-02T20:27:24Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Going in and saying ‘life is a pointless, brutal, miserable struggle created by amoral forces that don’t care how much suffering and misery they create just so long as it leads to higher survival rates. Life is in constant competition with other forms of life to survive’ isn’t too fun. I’d like to see your Sunday school class. “Hey kids. Some of you may have heard something about the NSA in the news. Well, God is even worse. He’s a celestial tyrant who watches you every second of every day for your entire life. He even knows what you think and dream. And if you don’t follow his edicts I have some bad news…” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-optimistic-take-on-evolution-when-discussing-it-with-kids/713973/45 "2015-03-02T20:27:24Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Horniness frequently makes fools of us human guys, but apparently we’re pikers compared to male octopi. Octopuses. Or, if you must, Octopodes. Greek, not Latin. How can you have been posting here as long as you have without knowing that! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-optimistic-take-on-evolution-when-discussing-it-with-kids/713973/46 "2015-03-02T20:38:24Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > If someone is talking to kids about evolution, is there an optimistic slant you can put on it? > > Going in and saying ‘life is a pointless, brutal, miserable struggle created by amoral forces that don’t care how much suffering and misery they create just so long as it leads to higher survival rates. Life is in constant competition with other forms of life to survive’ isn’t too fun. What could a person say to a kid that would be less intimidating or scary? OP, your premise is sound and it is important to put a positive spin on evolution for todays’ youth. Your approach is good, but you need to include more information in order to accomplish your goal. Let me demonstrate by adding on to your words. This is what I would say to my hypothetical son, Billy: Billy, life is a pointless, brutal, miserable struggle created by amoral forces that don’t care how much suffering and misery they create just so long as it leads to higher survival rates. Life is in constant competition with other forms of life to survive… …But, as luck would have it, you were born a member of the apex species here on Earth—you’re one of evolution’s winners. As such, you are blessed by God and will go to heaven when you die. You will once again see everyone you loved who died…grammy…poppy…Uncle Fred…everybody! Sadly, Billy, you won’t ever see your dog Lucky again. When poppy backed over him a couple years ago in his Crown Victoria, flattening him like a pancake, that was pretty much the end of the road for ol’ Lucky. You see, he wasn’t a member of the apex species and therefore went to hell. God hates losers. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-optimistic-take-on-evolution-when-discussing-it-with-kids/713973/47 "2015-03-02T20:39:19Z")
> [@Renee](#): > > That is the best thing I’ve read in weeks, thank you! You are very welcome! I felt the same way when I read about it! ETA: Tibby, I positively snorted with laugher when I read the end of your story up there. Especially the pancake bit. Well done! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-optimistic-take-on-evolution-when-discussing-it-with-kids/713973/48 "2015-03-02T21:11:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > How about a sports metaphor? > > There’s a whole lot of teams out there and the play against each other. And the teams that win more games make it to the playoffs. And all the players who don’t make the playoffs, die. So do the ones who make the playoffs but don’t win the championship. So do the ones who win the championships. Have fun at school! Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-optimistic-take-on-evolution-when-discussing-it-with-kids/713973/49 "2015-03-02T21:46:43Z")
This is a fun thread, I’m glad I started it. My point about ‘life being pointless’ was that what is the purpose of life? Is it to engage in behavior that is life affirming and life oriented. Much of that isn’t even conscious for life on this planet, it is encoded in genetics. In a way that does seem pointless. You live to engage in behavior that encourages life. The purpose of life is living. Religion and philosophy at least attempt to offer explanations for life that have some meaning to them. To work out karma, to grow spiritually, to learn lessons, to help god know itself, to determine ones spiritual worth, etc. For me when I first really started to process what evolution meant it was hard to adapt to at first because it can make you feel very helpless when you realize the amorality and inescapable nature of the system. I had troubles. In the end it was a very liberating thing to understand and the big questions of philosophy and ethics make intuitive sense from an evolutionist POV, but I had trouble at first. Also as to people saying ‘why does it matter’, it matters because if evolution is too scary then that could drive people into the arms of creationism. There is not alternative theory of gravity waiting in the wings if people feel threatened or scared by the accepted theory of gravity the way there is with evolution alternatives like creationism or intelligent design. I guess pointing out that most biomass is incapable of suffering helps. Single celled organisms, plants, invertebraes, insects, etc. don’t suffer. Even of animals who can suffer their suffering seems more limited to physical suffering. They aren’t capable of the kinds of psychic suffering humans are because we are social animals that can remember the past/fear the future. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-optimistic-take-on-evolution-when-discussing-it-with-kids/713973/50 "2015-03-02T21:49:37Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I’d like to see your Sunday school class. I got kicked out of sunday school for my views on Vietnam. Also I was stealing projectors. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-optimistic-take-on-evolution-when-discussing-it-with-kids/713973/51 "2015-03-02T22:00:23Z")
Like they told me “Life’s a bitch and then you die”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-optimistic-take-on-evolution-when-discussing-it-with-kids/713973/52 "2015-03-02T22:12:49Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > This is a fun thread, I’m glad I started it. > > My point about ‘life being pointless’ was that what is the purpose of life? Why does life have to have a purpose? I look at it as neither purposeful nor purposeless. LIfe is what it is. You can enjoy it or not-- it’s up to you. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-optimistic-take-on-evolution-when-discussing-it-with-kids/713973/53 "2015-03-02T22:20:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why does life have to have a purpose? I look at it as neither purposeful nor purposeless. LIfe is what it is. You can enjoy it or not-- it’s up to you. Aren’t humans built with a desire for purpose? If so, why does it exist? In evolutionary psych there are theories that it is a way to contribute to the social unit (which directly and indirectly benefits your own genetic fitness) but who knows. Maybe the desire for purpose is just a side effect of our big brains, the same way we see patterns in the clouds when none exist. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-optimistic-take-on-evolution-when-discussing-it-with-kids/713973/54 "2015-03-02T22:55:46Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Like they told me “Life’s a bitch and then you die”. Or, as one of my junior high school teachers told me, “Life is a virgin. If it were a bitch, it would be easy.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-optimistic-take-on-evolution-when-discussing-it-with-kids/713973/55 "2015-03-03T00:09:58Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > The point of life is whatever its posessor assigns to it. For some, the point is to help others. For some, it’s raising their own kids into health, well-adjusted adults. Or amassing unparalleled wealth. Or learning and experiencing as much as possible about the world. Or getting your name in the history books with publications, artwork, business achievement, or mass murder. > > Very few human beings will asert that the point if life is merely to continue to exist. My definition of life goes beyond humans. I was using it in the context of all biological phenomena, including insects, plants, bacteria, etc. And the **point** to all life seems to be to strive to survive, reproduce, improve, dominate, and basically exist. The **meaning** of life, on the other hand, is something that humans can make up as appropriate for their circumstances. I don’t think there is a meaning to _life_, but there may be meaning to _one’s own life_. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-optimistic-take-on-evolution-when-discussing-it-with-kids/713973/56 "2015-03-03T00:37:17Z")
**GuanoLad** : Exactly so, Life has a pretty specific goal: not to die! The “purpose” of living structures can be discussed meaningfully: eyes are “for” seeing, ears are “for” hearing, etc. Even these can be debated, but at least in general, it seems true. In the end, seeing, hearing (and so on) promote survival, and so that’s the purpose of nearly all structures. Our personal purposes are an emergent property of our big fat heads. We have the power to make up things that we want to live for. Religion, art, physical pleasure, abstract philosophy, or any number of other stuff that we get involved with. Debating philosophy on the internet isn’t obviously survival-oriented, but it does help us unite as a civilized society, and thus makes murderous violence slightly less likely. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-optimistic-take-on-evolution-when-discussing-it-with-kids/713973/57 "2015-03-03T12:52:04Z")
Evolution is neither optimistic nor pessimistic; it’s a simple fact. Things don’t get better or worse; they adapt or die. That’s reality. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-optimistic-take-on-evolution-when-discussing-it-with-kids/713973/58 "2015-03-03T14:22:33Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Aren’t humans built with a desire for purpose? If so, why does it exist? In evolutionary psych there are theories that it is a way to contribute to the social unit (which directly and indirectly benefits your own genetic fitness) but who knows. Maybe the desire for purpose is just a side effect of our big brains, the same way we see patterns in the clouds when none exist. Yes, I think we are but we have to find our own purpose. The Universe doesn’t provide one for us. Which gives us a lot of choices! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-optimistic-take-on-evolution-when-discussing-it-with-kids/713973.md?page=2)