# Is there any alternate-history fiction about democratic socialism winning and working? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 24, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-alternate-history-fiction-about-democratic-socialism-winning-and-working/526176 "2010-01-24T00:06:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-alternate-history-fiction-about-democratic-socialism-winning-and-working/526176/1 "2010-01-24T00:06:31Z")
I’ve read [_Back in the USSA,_](http://www.amazon.com/Francis-Parkman-Prize-Eric-Foner/dp/0965727017/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264288919&sr=8-2) by Eugene Byrne and Kim Newman, in which Eugene Debs leads a Socialist revolution in America in 1917, and then things go pretty much like they did in the Soviet Union (with Al Capone playing the role of Stalin, and J. Edgar Hoover (head of the Federal Bureay of Ideology) as Beria, and Alaska replacing Siberia as the place of exile for dissidents). And I’ve read [_The Gladiator,_](http://www.amazon.com/Gladiator-Crosstime-Traffic-Harry-Turtledove/dp/076531486X) by Harry Turtledove, where the USSR won the Cold War (with no nuclear exchange), and every country became more or less Stalinist. But I’ve never read an alternate-history story describing a world anything like what anti-totalitarian democratic socialists like George Orwell would tell you they had in mind. Have you? ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-alternate-history-fiction-about-democratic-socialism-winning-and-working/526176/2 "2010-01-24T00:24:56Z")
This isn’t alternate history but [Looking Backward by Edward Bellamy](http://www.amazon.com/Looking-Backward-2000-1887-Signet-Classics/dp/0451531167/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264292194&sr=1-2) is the first book I thought of. It certainly fits your criteria since the state depicted in the novel is a well-run socialist democracy (which, to more than a few, would automatically the book fantasy rather than science fiction). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-alternate-history-fiction-about-democratic-socialism-winning-and-working/526176/3 "2010-01-24T00:39:46Z")
The nearest thing I’ve found is the novella [“A Better World’s In Birth,”](http://www.goldengryphon.com/betterworld-frame.html) by Howard Waldrop – you can read it in his collection [_Other Worlds, Better Lives._](http://www.amazon.com/Other-Worlds-Better-Howard-Waldrop/dp/1882968387/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264293341&sr=1-1) The revolutions of 1848 lead shortly to a successul revolution led by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels (and, believe it or not, Richard Wagner). The society it portrays is, at least superficially, a place you would want to live. But, it provides very little description of the economic organization of the Peoples’ Federated States of Europe; and, again, it features a Stalin-figure (named “Eisenmann”) who is on the verge of purging the old revolutionaries and establishing a cult-of-personality dictatorship. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-alternate-history-fiction-about-democratic-socialism-winning-and-working/526176/4 "2010-01-24T04:09:55Z")
A number of [HG Wells](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._G._Wells)’ works from the describe something a little like this, in particular [The World Set Free](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Set_Free) and [The Shape of Things to Come](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shape_of_Things_to_Come). ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-alternate-history-fiction-about-democratic-socialism-winning-and-working/526176/5 "2010-01-24T05:02:14Z")
I think an American socialist party ends up doing pretty well in Turtledove’s alternate Civil War series (er…'can’t remember the overall title of the whole thing). Lincoln was apparently an early figure, after leaving office from his loss of the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-alternate-history-fiction-about-democratic-socialism-winning-and-working/526176/6 "2010-01-24T05:08:19Z")
Democratic Socialists? Is there ANY group more tedious? Why the FUCK would I want to watch a movie about them? Note the complete lack of a joking qualifier. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-alternate-history-fiction-about-democratic-socialism-winning-and-working/526176/7 "2010-01-24T05:19:25Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Democratic Socialists? Is there ANY group more tedious? Why the FUCK would I want to watch a movie about them? > > Note the complete lack of a joking qualifier. There was **nothing** tedious about George Orwell. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-alternate-history-fiction-about-democratic-socialism-winning-and-working/526176/8 "2010-01-24T05:21:30Z")
But the movies? I even tried the cartoon. Politics, REAL politics about issues and ideas and getting shit done, is a snooze outside a bar. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-alternate-history-fiction-about-democratic-socialism-winning-and-working/526176/9 "2010-01-24T05:51:33Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > But the movies? I even tried the cartoon. Politics, REAL politics about issues and ideas and getting shit done, is a snooze outside a bar. But perhaps you can make a good novel out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-alternate-history-fiction-about-democratic-socialism-winning-and-working/526176/10 "2010-01-24T06:16:36Z")
Are you familiar with the works of Gene Roddenberry? ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-alternate-history-fiction-about-democratic-socialism-winning-and-working/526176/11 "2010-01-24T17:57:28Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > I think an American socialist party ends up doing pretty well in Turtledove’s alternate Civil War series (er…'can’t remember the overall title of the whole thing). Lincoln was apparently an early figure, after leaving office from his loss of the Civil War. [Timeline-191](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline-191). A socialist is elected President between its World Wars, and I think his wife might have even been elected as well? I can’t remember. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-alternate-history-fiction-about-democratic-socialism-winning-and-working/526176/12 "2010-01-24T18:23:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > There was **nothing** tedious about George Orwell. And you’re asking for something totally different from anything Orwell wrote. Orwell’s famous works of fiction are about totalitarianism, not democratic socialism. So what’s your point? \*\*dropzone’s \*\*point is entirely correct. What you’re asking for is an alternate history of things going okay but with more welfare, as if the USA was Sweden. Why would anyone want to read that? There’s no drama, no conflict. It’s not an interesting premise for fiction. What will the protagonist be fighting against? A slow bureaucracy? Office politics? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-alternate-history-fiction-about-democratic-socialism-winning-and-working/526176/13 "2010-01-24T19:29:47Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > And you’re asking for something totally different from anything Orwell wrote. Orwell’s famous works of fiction are about totalitarianism, not democratic socialism. So what’s your point? I was merely refuting your assertion that socialists are “tedious”. Orwell (as many people who have read or heard of _1984_ or _Animal Farm_ are not aware) remained a committed socialist all his life, and, when writing **non** fiction, could be be very readable on the subject. As I thought I had made clear, what I’m looking for is AH fiction from the viewpoint of similar commitment (not necessarily written by a socialist, but by a writer who is willing to assume that viewpoint for purposes of the story). It has certainly been a constant theme among leftist thinkers ever since the Russian Revolution, that Stalinism is a perversion of the idea, and real historical opportunities were wasted and lost, and **things could have gone better** if only this or that revolution or war or power struggle had come out a different way; which is the very definition of alternate history. But, despite the enormous amount of literary talent the political left has attracted over the past hundred years, I have never seen a fictional treatment of that theme, with the sole and very limited exception of the Waldrop novella mentioned in post # 3. At any rate, there is absolutely no reason to assume such a fictional treatment would necessarily be “tedious.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-alternate-history-fiction-about-democratic-socialism-winning-and-working/526176/14 "2010-01-24T19:38:51Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > [Timeline-191](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline-191). A socialist is elected President between its World Wars, and I think his wife might have even been elected as well? I can’t remember. Yes – but really, it doesn’t change much of anything. The “Socialist” party in the Timeline-191 U.S., when it achieves power, governs like the social-democratic parties (many of which also have “Socialist” in their names) of Western Europe. There’s a bit more welfare-statism and regulation and redistributive taxation and friendliness to labor unions, and a bit less militarism and imperialism, but no concerted effort to build a classless or collectivist society, or to replace capitalism with anything fundamentally different. Really, it’s just a New Deal unrestrained by conservative/racist Southern Democrats. Socialists would regard social democracy as a real improvement, but not nearly what they’re aiming at. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-alternate-history-fiction-about-democratic-socialism-winning-and-working/526176/15 "2010-01-24T19:46:19Z")
Also, in Timeline-191, the Great Depression arrives right on schedule – and on the Socialists’ watch, so they take the political heat for it, and what in our timeline were called “Hoovervilles” are named “Blackfordburgs” (Blackford being the interwar Socialist president); the Socialists then get turned out of power for a time. The Democrats, OTOH, take the place of the Republicans in OTL, the pro-business and militarist party. Turtledove’s (debatable, but highly interestingly debatable) assumption here is that the Depression would have happened in much the same way no matter what kind of government were in power at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-alternate-history-fiction-about-democratic-socialism-winning-and-working/526176/16 "2010-01-24T19:56:01Z")
Maybe _China Mountain Zhang_ by Maureen F. McHugh. It’s hard to characterize the society in it though, and it’s hard to tell if it’s a good society. It’s been a while since I read it, so I may not be remembering it correctly. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-alternate-history-fiction-about-democratic-socialism-winning-and-working/526176/17 "2010-01-24T19:57:45Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Are you familiar with the works of Gene Roddenberry? First thing I thought of was STAR TREK. An old novel about a democratic socialist revolution in America & the resulting administration was PHILIP DRU: ADMINISTRATOR, published around 1912, authored by “Colonel” Edward Mandell House, advisor to Woodrow Wilson & “founder” of the Council on Foreign Relations. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-alternate-history-fiction-about-democratic-socialism-winning-and-working/526176/18 "2010-01-24T20:39:44Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > First thing I thought of was STAR TREK. Well, the Federation is a society where social hierarchies and privileges and poverty appear to have been gradually eliminated by technological progress alone, not by any political revolution or evolution. In the 1960s, when America had grown so much more prosperous and egalitarian through previous decades mostly because of that kind of progress, it must have been easy to assume the process would continue indefinitely. Many seem to believe it still, on no better grounds than Roddenberry. > [@FriarTed](#): > > An old novel about a democratic socialist revolution in America & the resulting administration was PHILIP DRU: ADMINISTRATOR, published around 1912, authored by “Colonel” Edward Mandell House, advisor to Woodrow Wilson & “founder” of the Council on Foreign Relations. But [Dru,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Dru:_Administrator) for all his anti-plutocratic rhetoric and even policy, was essentially just a [Progressive](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Party_(United_States,_1912)) in the early-20th-Century sense of the term – not a “progressive” in today’s sense (i.e., a social democrat, something well to the right of “socialist” and well to the left of “liberal”), nor a socialist of any kind. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-alternate-history-fiction-about-democratic-socialism-winning-and-working/526176/19 "2010-01-24T22:28:34Z")
[China Mieville’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Mi%C3%A9ville) work might be worth exploring. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, the Federation is a society where social hierarchies and privileges and poverty appear to have been gradually eliminated by technological progress alone, not by any political revolution or evolution. In the 1960s, when America had grown so much more prosperous and egalitarian through previous decades mostly because of that kind of progress, it must have been easy to assume the process would continue indefinitely. Many seem to believe it still, on no better grounds than Roddenberry. One nitpick: The _Star Trek_ universe postulates a collapse of civilization between now and then. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-alternate-history-fiction-about-democratic-socialism-winning-and-working/526176/20 "2010-01-24T23:24:20Z")
[\*John Jones’ Dollar \*](http://site.xavier.edu/polt/keeler/etexts/dollar.html) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-alternate-history-fiction-about-democratic-socialism-winning-and-working/526176.md?page=2)