# Is there any downside ?to unionizing **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 4, 2014, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329 "2014-10-04T00:43:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![keturah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e95f7d/32.png) [@keturah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keturah)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329/41 "2014-10-06T01:54:23Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > The notion that any employer/employee relationship isn’t adversarial in nature is ridiculous. Would you like to double down on that and claim that there is no power disparity in the relationship? Power disparity does not equal an adversarial relationship. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329/42 "2014-10-06T02:55:01Z")
> [@keturah](#): > > Power disparity does not equal an adversarial relationship. Of course it does!! Do you truly believe people with power WON’T exercise that power? If you don’t exert your power, what’s the point of having it? ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329/43 "2014-10-06T03:08:38Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > The notion that any employer/employee relationship isn’t adversarial in nature is ridiculous. Would you like to double down on that and claim that there is no power disparity in the relationship? I’m not saying that there is no power disparity, but it doesn’t _have_ to be adversarial. I’ve witnessed companies where the bosses are genuinely nice people, who make the effort to create a functional environment for the company to make money and the employees to comfortably live their lives (yes, they do actually exist!) There’s a reason why some companies are considered “good places to work” by the likes of Forbes magazine and some aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329/44 "2014-10-06T03:22:25Z")
LC: those bosses my be “nice guys” but they have their subordinate’s futures in their hands. Make no mistake about it, bosses have ALL the power. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329/45 "2014-10-06T03:29:59Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > LC: those bosses my be “nice guys” but they have their subordinate’s futures in their hands. Make no mistake about it, bosses have ALL the power. Could be, but not all bosses abuse their power (just as not all parents beat their children.) Self-employment is an option if one doesn’t want anything to do with a power imbalance, but most people accept it as a fact of life. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329/46 "2014-10-06T03:34:49Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > bosses have ALL the power. Hmm, I wonder if there is any sort of thing or group that has ever tried to help with that . . . . ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329/47 "2014-10-06T03:35:30Z")
Right, because they realize/accept that their boss has them by the ass. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329/48 "2014-10-06T04:14:54Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Um, if you trust other people to have power over you and protect you, that’s why you would join a union. If you trust yourself, then you’ll have confidence in what you’re worth and know that you can get more money elsewhere if your current boss won’t pay you. > > The only people who need unions are those without marketable skills. Holy shit, you’re wrong again! I mean, wow, that’s a special kind of ill-informed, cliched, short-sighted “I hate democracy” attitude and a near-complete lack of critical thinking on display in that post. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329/49 "2014-10-06T04:27:04Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > The OP should note that the above isn’t a false-flag attack by union-haters in an attempt to make union-supporters look bad. **There are people out there who actually believe this.** And they think they’re helping to support their cause. Never mind that a power disparity does not inevitably breed adversary. And never mind that adversary is not a binary function. You don’t have to pussyfoot around; you can talk directly to me. Was there something you wanted to say? > [@keturah](#): > > Power disparity does not equal an adversarial relationship. Yeah, for some reason **Ruken** seem to think I said that too. :dubious: I didn’t. Not sure why you guys read words that weren’t there, but it seems that you did. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329/50 "2014-10-06T04:48:19Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I’m not saying that there is no power disparity, but it doesn’t _have_ to be adversarial. I’ve witnessed companies where the bosses are genuinely nice people, who make the effort to create a functional environment for the company to make money and the employees to comfortably live their lives (yes, they do actually exist!) There’s a reason why some companies are considered “good places to work” by the likes of Forbes magazine and some aren’t. I have known benevolent bosses. Without fail, all of them eventually became regular old bosses. Some quicker, some slower than others, but eventually they all became regular old bosses. I would like to see what you describe become the norm, but I feel that American culture, and especially American business culture, will likely never be as you describe. Volkswagen was trying to implement that culture here in the US earlier this year, remember? And ruthless amoral opposition beat them down. Ruthless amoral opposition will continue to beat down similar egalitarian movements; it’s what they do. Thankfully, [Volkswagen is still trying to change things](http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/10/chattanooga-volkswagenunion.html). But look at how ingrained in our culture anti-unionism is: a union that was not only backed by the employer but was desired and sought by the employer couldn’t win an election. I just don’t see a massive shift in values from “gimme mine” to “we’re all in this together” happening in the US in my lifetime (and I plan on living a very long time; I have a lot to do). So, while I work, I work union. My life is better for it, the lives of my union brothers & sisters and their families are better for it, and my local industry is strong and well-regarded on an international level. Unions are not the easy way out; they are hard work. But the benefits far outweigh the demerits, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329/51 "2014-10-06T04:56:46Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > The OP should note that the above isn’t a false-flag attack by union-haters in an attempt to make union-supporters look bad. **There are people out there who actually believe this.** And they think they’re helping to support their cause. Never mind that a power disparity does not inevitably breed adversary. Or that it’s not a neccesary part of a job. Some workers are much more interchangeable than others; highly skilled ones are more difficult to replace and their lack can mean loss of business or of efficiency (depending on the sector and position this may mean technical or interpersonal skills, or both). ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329/52 "2014-10-06T05:24:47Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I have known benevolent bosses. Without fail, all of them eventually became regular old bosses. Some quicker, some slower than others, but eventually they all became regular old bosses. Ya know, I thunk about this some and realized I was wrong; I know a couple of bosses who have not yet succumbed. Perhaps they never will, which would be great. One in particular I have high hopes for because he’s always been a better person than he thinks he is and claims to be. So okay, I was outta line characterizing 100% of bosses as jerks. Mea culpa. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329/53 "2014-10-06T05:26:44Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Or that it’s not a neccesary part of a job. Some workers are much more interchangeable than others; highly skilled ones are more difficult to replace and their lack can mean loss of business or of efficiency (depending on the sector and position this may mean technical or interpersonal skills, or both). Unions exist for a wide range of professions, actors. writers, professional athletes, police officers, teachers, plumbers, electricians, janitors, orchestral musicians, truck drivers, construction workers, transit workers etc. In some of these professions workers are easily interchangeable in others they are not as far as I can tell. For my particular situation it is semi skilled blue collar work; fairly interchangeable, but not completely. So I am guessing you are saying in your opinion unionization is best for me period because of my position is easily interchangeable. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329/54 "2014-10-06T05:46:31Z")
I think it is more likely to be positive for easily interchangeable people, specially in places with “at will” laws and stuff like that. When there _is_ a power imbalance, having an official structure rather than a bunch of individuals or an unofficial united front closes the power gap somewhat. “Best”, not necessarily - a bad union is worse than no union. I’m from a unionized country and we had some instances where the union reps clearly worked for the Union and not for the workers: keeping pieces of shit in jobs, stirring trouble in a disciplinary situation where the worker was the first to accept that he had been out of line and a timeout was in order. Why should the factory go on strike for three days (losing three days’ worth of pay), to “defend” a guy who screwed up, says he screwed up and is perfectly happy to use his three days of punishment to paint the house? Because the Union says so, and who cares about the workers! ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329/55 "2014-10-06T15:30:05Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I’m not saying that there is no power disparity, but it doesn’t _have_ to be adversarial. I’ve witnessed companies where the bosses are genuinely nice people, who make the effort to create a functional environment for the company to make money and the employees to comfortably live their lives (yes, they do actually exist!) There’s a reason why some companies are considered “good places to work” by the likes of Forbes magazine and some aren’t. I guess I work in a company like that. I assume that most large, successful companies are like mine. Basically, there’s no advantage whatsoever to abusing my employees. And there’s not much advantage in my management abusing me. One team, one plan, one goal, etc. I don’t control my employees’ pay. That’s HR’s function. I’m responsible for managing employees’ overtime, but as far as employee finances, that’s it. More importantly, I have to manage my employees (and myself, currently) so that we manage the company’s budget properly. That we receive what we pay for. That it meets our standards. That our plants and suppliers deliver to our expectations and standards. I’m also responsible for employee development, and yes, responsible for nominating and defending them in the case of promotions and other HR-related perquisites. I depend on my employees for my own success; I don’t want to fuck them over. All the same, I won’t let a bad employee get away with being lazy and screwing over the team (I’ve never had to take advantage of company corrective action policies, knock on wood). I fully expect that if my regional VP needed to make cuts and I were an identified target, it wouldn’t be personal. He knows me, but knows me among 100 other managers at my level and above. There’s nothing adversarial. This isn’t to say that there doesn’t exist politics and competition. It sucks, and like-minded people try to resist it, but it’s a fact of life. But corporate politics aren’t about fucking over subordinates; it’s about fucking over peers or superiors. Not relevant to “power disparity.” God forbid I should ever have to work in an environment where my superior wasn’t trying to develop me and my team (within his resources). ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329/56 "2014-10-06T16:31:56Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I have known benevolent bosses. Without fail, all of them eventually became regular old bosses. Some quicker, some slower than others, but eventually they all became regular old bosses. > > I would like to see what you describe become the norm, but I feel that American culture, and especially American business culture, will likely never be as you describe. > > Volkswagen was trying to implement that culture here in the US earlier this year, remember? And ruthless amoral opposition beat them down. Ruthless amoral opposition will continue to beat down similar egalitarian movements; it’s what they do. Thankfully, [Volkswagen is still trying to change things](http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/10/chattanooga-volkswagenunion.html). But look at how ingrained in our culture anti-unionism is: a union that was not only backed by the employer but was desired and sought by the employer couldn’t win an election. > > I just don’t see a massive shift in values from “gimme mine” to “we’re all in this together” happening in the US in my lifetime (and I plan on living a very long time; I have a lot to do). So, while I work, I work union. My life is better for it, the lives of my union brothers & sisters and their families are better for it, and my local industry is strong and well-regarded on an international level. > > Unions are not the easy way out; they are hard work. But the benefits far outweigh the demerits, IMO. Volkswagen is just about the most union-friendly automaker on the planet. The irony is, that means that workers have little incentive to join a union, because the status quo is already pretty good. After the unionizing vote failed, my local newspaoper summed it up pretty well: “The UAW had everything going for it, except a compelling reason for the workers to unionize.” (Incidentally, the Japanese automakers lie at the opposite end of the spectrum. They’ll pretty much nuke a factory from orbit to keep the unions out.) Of course, the way Vokswagen is doing in the US these days (pretty damn bad), whether their factory in Tennessee unionizes or not might not be relevant in a few years. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329/57 "2014-10-06T16:41:15Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Ya know, I thunk about this some and realized I was wrong; I know a couple of bosses who have not yet succumbed. Perhaps they never will, which would be great. One in particular I have high hopes for because he’s always been a better person than he thinks he is and claims to be. > > So okay, I was outta line characterizing 100% of bosses as jerks. Mea culpa. It’s only 99%. At least for effective bosses. Balthisar: It may not be personal, in the sense he knows your name and life situation, but he is STILL removing you from your job. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329/58 "2014-10-06T16:44:49Z")
One thing to watch out for with unions: you must beware of situations where the union’s interests might diverge from your own. In many of the cases where unionized companies have gone out of business because they’re too expensive, the union knew full well that the employer was in trouble, but they refused to give concessions (or even discuss the possibility) out of fear that it would make the union look weak or ineffective. The fact that the workers ended up losing their jobs was just collateral damage in their eyes. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329/59 "2014-10-06T18:46:26Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > The notion that any employer/employee relationship isn’t adversarial in nature is ridiculous. Would you like to double down on that and claim that there is no power disparity in the relationship? Maybe it’s because I work for an employee owned company, but this is not my experience at all. I have no “boss”. I have managers, but by all appearances they work _for me_, not the other way around. Their job is to navigate bureaucracy and guide me through it, so that I can focus on engineering and doing my job without dealing with bullshit paperwork all day. They procure the customers and make sure the invoices get sent and I just chug away at what I’m good at. My “supervisor” is a guy who comes and asks me if I have the time or inclination to work on a project, and politely takes “no” for an answer when I don’t. His job is to organize a group of engineers and report to management what we’re doing at any given time. I’m glad that he does his job because it shields me from a lot of bullshit. Rather than letting shit roll downhill, managers should deflect bullshit from the people who actually earn money for the company. Their job is to clear away distractions from people who are getting real work done. Believe it or not, there are functional companies where this is the case. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329/60 "2014-10-06T18:50:13Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > One thing to watch out for with unions: you must beware of situations where the union’s interests might diverge from your own. In many of the cases where unionized companies have gone out of business because they’re too expensive, the union knew full well that the employer was in trouble, but they refused to give concessions (or even discuss the possibility) out of fear that it would make the union look weak or ineffective. The fact that the workers ended up losing their jobs was just collateral damage in their eyes. “In many of the cases”? Do you have some cites for this happening? And why aren’t you offering the same advice to people about the companies and people they work for? “You must beware of situations where the employer’s interests might diverge from your own.” Take, for instance, compensation: an employee who wants a raise is almost certainly seeing his interests diverge from his employer’s interests, which is usually to increase profits. BAM adversarial relationship. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-downside-to-unionizing/700329.md?page=4)