# Is there any empirical evidence that men are actually less interested in successful, educated women?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-empirical-evidence-that-men-are-actually-less-interested-in-successful-educated-women/536611
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [April 19, 2010, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-empirical-evidence-that-men-are-actually-less-interested-in-successful-educated-women/536611 "2010-04-19T06:11:53Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@lezlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lezlers)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-empirical-evidence-that-men-are-actually-less-interested-in-successful-educated-women/536611/41 "2010-04-21T00:14:09Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#):
>
> Successful IN THE DATING WORLD…(though one could argue that many people in the U.S. apply it to all life as well)
>
> That is different from actually successful 🙂
>
> {as an example, when I was a teacher I was in a restaurant. 2 of the waitresses were discussing their adult daughters dating success. One waitress was distraught (and I do mean distraught - she was positively wringing her hands with dismay) that her daughter was dating a, gasp, TEACHER! She had not met him yet and didn’t know much about him but she wanted so much more for her daughter - she wanted her daughter to date and marry a successful man…and this teacher COULD have won teacher of the year and COULD have been awarded it by the President on a stage…but that didn’t matter…he was a teacher and therefore not successful.
>
> This attitude is not uncommon.}
Ah, yes, I feel you. Kind of like how people assume I’m a crappy attorney (or not one at all) because I don’t have a corner office in a high rise. I do what I do because I love it and I’m passionate about it. I’m clearly not in it for the money, so I can’t possibly be good at what I do…
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### Author:  [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2010, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-empirical-evidence-that-men-are-actually-less-interested-in-successful-educated-women/536611/42 "2010-04-21T00:30:41Z")
> [@doubled](#):
>
> And as for the first question – even if it is hard for successful, intelligent, educated women to meet men, do you think it’s any easier for UN-successful, UN-intelligent, UN-educated women?
I personally know a woman with a face like an old farm fence, no education, been in prison for committing fraud, has lost of all three of her children to the three separate fathers, on welfare, no prospects and not even her family will hang out with her because she’s so odious.
She has an endless supply of men who want to move in with her and make babies - typically after the first 2 or 3 dates.
I suspect she’s equipped with two vaginas - there’s no other explanation I can think of. (Not even a really good blowjob can make up for how much of a train wreck this chick is.)
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### Author:  [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-empirical-evidence-that-men-are-actually-less-interested-in-successful-educated-women/536611/43 "2010-04-21T00:50:41Z")
> [@lezlers](#):
>
> I think you meant to quote **blinkingduck** …
No actually, I was commiserating with you about not being successful according to **BlinkingDuck** ’s standards. I just wasn’t very good at expressing it. Which is not at all unusual for me when attempting to communicate with women. 😃
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### Author:  [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-empirical-evidence-that-men-are-actually-less-interested-in-successful-educated-women/536611/44 "2010-04-21T01:20:20Z")
> [@digs](#):
>
> Wow, Doug. You just summed up The Secret To Happiness… and did it by bringing together Bobby McFerrin, Audioslave, Steve Sondheim and Siggy Freud.
>
> Thanks, man.
Snark?
I don’t actually believe much in happiness. AFAIC, getting through each day is a luxury, and we ought to realize it.
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-empirical-evidence-that-men-are-actually-less-interested-in-successful-educated-women/536611/45 "2010-04-21T01:45:30Z")
> [@Mijin](#):
>
> It’s interesting that while many women on this thread believe that men are uncomfortable dating successful, intelligent women, the guys are saying the opposite, and aren’t even claiming to have friends that act like that.
To be honest, I suspect **people generally like dating people who are a lot like they are** , and I’m surprised that answer isn’t the obvious one.
I’m a reasonably successful professional. If I were to line up dates, I’d be looking for women who were successful professionals. I think it’s unlikely that I would be interested in dating uneducated women working in menial jobs - not impossible, but it’s just not a good odds-on bet. On the other hand, I probably wouldn’t get along with an ultra-driven corporate ladder-climber who spends 100 hours a week on the job, either, or a politician or something, because work and wealth isn’t THAT important to me.
I’d want to date someone with whom I could relate. University grad, good career? Sure, sounds like my kind of person.
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### Author:  [@palacheck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/palacheck)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2010, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-empirical-evidence-that-men-are-actually-less-interested-in-successful-educated-women/536611/46 "2010-04-21T06:32:51Z")
Seems like men always shoulder the blame in dating threads.
Since no one else has provided actual evidence I’ll provide some personal experiences.
I have no problem dating a much more successful woman–in fact, almost every woman I dated before 27 made more money than me. The most successful woman I’ve ever dated had a problem with my financial situation…so I married her and had a kid :dubious:. It’s just hard for me to say whether my good fortune in the dating world(except for a couple divorces:o) has been through looks or financial success. I was a very good looking young man and worked hard laboring jobs. As my looks faded I found a niche in sales and I think my income took up the slack.
I like the nice guy comparison mentioned by others so I’ll piggyback on their conclusions.
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### Author:  [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2010, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-empirical-evidence-that-men-are-actually-less-interested-in-successful-educated-women/536611/47 "2010-04-21T06:57:33Z")
> [@Lok](#):
>
> Hmm. Just wanted to point out, I am over 40, and have no problem with dating a woman that makes more than I do. And if she speaks English with an accent, it is a plus! 😃
By “over 40” I meant their number, not their age 🙂 I’m over-40 by age now, but a bit far from Ohio… thanks for the smile, though!
I know perfectly well that “men” aren’t uncomfortable dating “succesful” women, any more than “women” refuse to marry someone without a Rock[sup]TM[/sup]. Do some members of each group do the above? Yeah.
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### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2010, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-empirical-evidence-that-men-are-actually-less-interested-in-successful-educated-women/536611/48 "2010-04-21T07:06:46Z")
> [@Nava](#):
>
> By “over 40” I meant their number, not their age 🙂 I’m over-40 by age now, but a bit far from Ohio… thanks for the smile, though!
> I know perfectly well that “men” aren’t uncomfortable dating “succesful” women, any more than “women” refuse to marry someone without a Rock[sup]TM[/sup]. Do some members of each group do the above? Yeah.
“Yeah,” I guess “I’m” not representative “of” the “entire” male population"."
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### Author:  [@malkavia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malkavia)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2010, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-empirical-evidence-that-men-are-actually-less-interested-in-successful-educated-women/536611/49 "2010-04-21T07:19:22Z")
> [@md2000](#):
>
> There is a cultural bias that says a guy who has to rely on his woman for his allowance is not a “real” man. While women don’t have a problem letting the guy pay (and often he will insist) **most guys will think of themselves as a failure if she HAS to lick up the tab**. If they don’t, either they are supremely comfortable with themselves, or more likely, freeloading jerks.
I feel like my whole life is a lie right now. Here I thought you guys liked it when we lick up your tabs. ☹ But apparently, I’ve been doing this all wrong.
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### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2010, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-empirical-evidence-that-men-are-actually-less-interested-in-successful-educated-women/536611/50 "2010-04-21T07:22:38Z")
> [@malkavia](#):
>
> I feel like my whole life is a lie right now. Here I thought you guys liked it when we lick up your tabs. ☹ But apparently, I’ve been doing this all wrong.
I’ll let you lick my tab. Can’t promise I’ll respect you in the morning.
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### Author:  [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-empirical-evidence-that-men-are-actually-less-interested-in-successful-educated-women/536611/51 "2010-04-21T15:59:56Z")
Is this really still in GQ? I’m expecting at least the dimensions needed for that ice floe I’ve apparently got to hop onto when I hit 40 (and am no longer attractive. Or is it 35?), maybe a breakdown of how long a grown woman could survive in subzero conditions.
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### Author:  [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-empirical-evidence-that-men-are-actually-less-interested-in-successful-educated-women/536611/52 "2010-04-21T16:54:18Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#):
>
> I personally know a woman with a face like an old farm fence, no education, been in prison for committing fraud, has lost of all three of her children to the three separate fathers, on welfare, no prospects and not even her family will hang out with her because she’s so odious.
>
> She has an endless supply of men who want to move in with her and make babies - typically after the first 2 or 3 dates.
>
> I suspect she’s equipped with two vaginas - there’s no other explanation I can think of. (Not even a really good blowjob can make up for how much of a train wreck this chick is.)
Or there’s a fearsome undersupply of available vagina, though I expect this assertion to be as vigorously contested as ever. 😛
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### Author:  [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-empirical-evidence-that-men-are-actually-less-interested-in-successful-educated-women/536611/53 "2010-04-21T20:30:21Z")
> [@Nava](#):
>
> By “over 40” I meant their number, not their age 🙂 I’m over-40 by age now, but a bit far from Ohio… thanks for the smile, though!
So ages are close, and the piddling little ocean wouldn’t be a problem But what about the English with an accent? That could be a deal breaker. 😛
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2010, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-empirical-evidence-that-men-are-actually-less-interested-in-successful-educated-women/536611/54 "2010-04-22T06:02:01Z")
Goofy anecdotes aside there actually is a GQ answer to the op, and it is that the empirical evidence shows that it is [untrue](http://article.nationalreview.com/324819/gentlemen-prefer-brains/christine-whelan) - men apparently are _not_ less interested in smart educated successful women.
> [@](#):
>
> Today’s smart, successful women marry at the same rates as all other women. They just do so a little bit older and a whole lot wiser.
>
> On average, educated or career-oriented women marry for the first time at age 30. So among the twentysomething set, successful women may be feeling a little panicky. Then the tides turn: A smart, successful single 30-year-old has a 75-percent chance of walking down the aisle in the next ten years — significantly greater odds than her less educated or lower earning peers. …
>
> … in a Harris Interactive poll I commissioned on this topic, 71-percent of high-earning or graduate-educated men said a woman’s career or educational success makes her more desirable as a wife, 68-percent report that smart women make better mothers and 90-percent of high-achieving men say they want to marry - or are already married to — a woman who is as or more intelligent than they are. …
Bottom line ladies, if you are older and single when you’d rather be partnered, well you can’t blame it on your being too smart or too successful.
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### Author:  [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-empirical-evidence-that-men-are-actually-less-interested-in-successful-educated-women/536611/55 "2010-04-22T20:39:05Z")
I’m convinced, however, that most educated women would prefer a man with greater earning power and less education than herself over one with as much/more schooling but less earning power. Even if one doesn’t believe in evolutionary psychology, there’s still gender socialization to consider.
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### Author:  [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2010, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-empirical-evidence-that-men-are-actually-less-interested-in-successful-educated-women/536611/56 "2010-04-23T14:14:09Z")
> [@lezlers](#):
>
> In my experience, men always _claim_ they want successful, intelligent women, but once they’re actually dating someone who exceeds them in either income or plain intelligence, resentment is never far away.
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> To be honest, I suspect **people generally like dating people who are a lot like they are**
These comments square pretty damn well with my observations. People typically want friends and SOs who are roughly as intelligent as they are, and are less comfortable being around a person of either sex who is significantly more intelligent than them. To a lesser extent, this also tends to hold true for other characteristics like physical attractiveness, income, and recreational activities. Which makes perfect sense to me–who wants to hang around with someone who makes them feel stupid, ugly, poor, or boring?
So yeah, the further out the intelligent end of the bell curve you go, the larger the number of people who are intimidated by or uncomfortable with your intelligence.
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### Author:  [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-empirical-evidence-that-men-are-actually-less-interested-in-successful-educated-women/536611/57 "2010-04-23T16:25:24Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#):
>
> These comments square pretty damn well with my observations. People typically want friends and SOs who are roughly as intelligent as they are, and are less comfortable being around a person of either sex who is significantly more intelligent than them. To a lesser extent, this also tends to hold true for other characteristics like physical attractiveness, income, and recreational activities. Which makes perfect sense to me–who wants to hang around with someone who makes them feel stupid, ugly, poor, or boring?
>
> So yeah, the further out the intelligent end of the bell curve you go, the larger the number of people who are intimidated by or uncomfortable with your intelligence.
There was a whole separate thread on jokes and IQ; I suppose the same applies for other compatibility measures. If the smarter person does not enjoy having someone around who doesn’t understand or can’t figure out things they say, then they are not compatible; ditto if the lesser person is smart enough to understand when they are being played, mocked or outclassed by the other.
One guy I know who was pretty bright married a low-IQ woman because (a) she screwed like a minx and (b) he enjoyed being dominat in the relationship and winning the arguments. I remember him whining during a rocky patch - he’d win the argument, she’d go talk to her (smarter) friends who would tell her “don’t put up with that” and she’s come back disagreeing with what he’d argued her into…
There’s something parallel to this question in the discussion about how girls suddenly start actingdumb in school at about puberty, as most learn the lesson the boys they are after don’t like to be out-classed even if they are dim-wits.
I think women are drawn to “bad boys” or agressive/alpha males in the same way that men are attracted to young women; it’s instinctive urge, much as we may recognize the excution of that urge is often a bad idea in modern society and for the long term.
The other possibility is that Sturgeon’s Law applies to dating too; that the inevitable bad choices that women (and men) make simply get pigeon-holed into “doesn’t like that I am X or do Y or make $Z”.
So the guy who doesn’t mind if the woman pays most of the time may simply be a kind, loving, new-age type who says “If you don’t resent paying my way and you want me with you, I have no problem with you paying”. Or, he may be an insensitive free-loader who just takes all the freebies for granted. Speaking as a guy, I am inclined to believe a lot of guys tend toward insentive.
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### Author:  [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-empirical-evidence-that-men-are-actually-less-interested-in-successful-educated-women/536611/58 "2010-04-23T16:28:25Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> Goofy anecdotes aside there actually is a GQ answer to the op, and it is that the empirical evidence shows that it is [untrue](http://article.nationalreview.com/324819/gentlemen-prefer-brains/christine-whelan) - men apparently are _not_ less interested in smart educated successful women.Bottom line ladies, if you are older and single when you’d rather be partnered, well you can’t blame it on your being too smart or too successful.
The interesting question is how many of those 30yo’s end up marrying significantly older (hence, likely more “successful”) guys? Someone in the same social/educational range but with a longer career will appear somewhat more successful…
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### Author:  [@YourAdHere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YourAdHere)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-empirical-evidence-that-men-are-actually-less-interested-in-successful-educated-women/536611/59 "2010-04-23T17:15:16Z")
well, here is one study which may help, or at least provide a data point for you:
[http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/emir.kamenica/documents/genderDifferences.pdf](http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/emir.kamenica/documents/genderDifferences.pdf)
(warning - PDF).
non pdf quick view [http://www.google.com/url?q=http://docs.google.com/viewer%3Fa%3Dv%26q%3Dcache:jyw-ZWmdeOEJ:faculty.chicagobooth.edu/emir.kamenica/documents/genderDifferences.pdf%2Bmale%2Bmate%2Bpreference%2Bstatistics%2Bincome%26hl%3Den%26gl%3Dus%26pid%3Dbl%26srcid%3DADGEEShQV-Mv5IyfDZI-\_ptqmzb-vfevFvfXiXnS1R-n-6fvFZxq1QFg7nwah4onBxQXskzAN1zKujiSyfvKePcTzNZW4\_tWoX7j9\_okl8xKhGtQHvLyEkHkQHjETvBBYJ87rdVaxDkH%26sig%3DAHIEtbSoaQN9Ps0O5hK20lI\_1Uh\_xgjxiw&ei=PMzRS6-VEML78AbHtdTGDw&sa=X&oi=gview&resnum=2&ct=other&ved=0CBIQxQEwAQ&usg=AFQjCNFjc8pLR6K9jQr2Z5CH4OlTPZfeaQ](http://www.google.com/url?q=http://docs.google.com/viewer%3Fa%3Dv%26q%3Dcache:jyw-ZWmdeOEJ:faculty.chicagobooth.edu/emir.kamenica/documents/genderDifferences.pdf%2Bmale%2Bmate%2Bpreference%2Bstatistics%2Bincome%26hl%3Den%26gl%3Dus%26pid%3Dbl%26srcid%3DADGEEShQV-Mv5IyfDZI-_ptqmzb-vfevFvfXiXnS1R-n-6fvFZxq1QFg7nwah4onBxQXskzAN1zKujiSyfvKePcTzNZW4_tWoX7j9_okl8xKhGtQHvLyEkHkQHjETvBBYJ87rdVaxDkH%26sig%3DAHIEtbSoaQN9Ps0O5hK20lI_1Uh_xgjxiw&ei=PMzRS6-VEML78AbHtdTGDw&sa=X&oi=gview&resnum=2&ct=other&ved=0CBIQxQEwAQ&usg=AFQjCNFjc8pLR6K9jQr2Z5CH4OlTPZfeaQ)
It is based on a speed dating experiment. It says:
“Women put greater weight on the intelligence and the race of the partner, while men respond more to physical attractiveness. Moreover men do not value women’s intelligence or ambition when it exceeds their own. Also, we find that women exhibit a preference for men who grew up in affluent neighborhoods.”
Ok, that cite bought me an anecdote and the right to a hi-jackulation.
Personally, I know a woman who is incredibly intelligent, successful, and beautiful; all much more so than myself. I think she’s _amazing_ and I would give anything and everything to be with her long term later in life when we’re ready to settle down.
However I am slowly coming to the realization that since she is much more attractive, intelligent, hard working, and successful than I am, conversely that means that I am a less attractive, less intelligent, lazy loser to her. Given that, I really wouldn’t expect her to want me…but that sure as hell doesn’t stop me from trying. Maybe she’ll decide it would be better to have 100% of a lesser guy’s devotion than 60% of a better guy’s devotion. Just let me dream, damn it!
Since reproduction takes so much more out of women than it does out of men, women would benefit by being more choosey about whom they reproduce with, and men less so. Therefore when all aspects are taken into account men would be more likely to “settle” than women.
Of course there is also the issue of females tricking males into raising offspring that are not their own. That way the female’s offspring get the superior genes of one mate, but the reliability, resources, and devotion of another. Certain birds are known to do this. Studies show that in humans the figure may be as high as 1/25 (cite: [http://www.parentdish.com/2007/04/30/close-to-4-percent-of-men-unknowingly-raising-another-mans-chil/](http://www.parentdish.com/2007/04/30/close-to-4-percent-of-men-unknowingly-raising-another-mans-chil/))
If you buy into evolutionary psychology, it may make sense that men would be turned off by “successful” females whom they know could get a better partner because it may increase the likelihood of cuckoldry.
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-empirical-evidence-that-men-are-actually-less-interested-in-successful-educated-women/536611/60 "2010-04-23T17:45:02Z")
> [@YourAdHere](#):
>
> “…Moreover men do not value women’s intelligence or ambition when it exceeds their own. …”.
But even in that study they _do_ value it up to where it matches their own.
It seems the take-home is that men will be attracted to women more physically attractive than they are and to intelligence/ambition/power as close to their own without going over as possible. Sort of like the Price is Right show.
Women for their part will be attracted more to men with greater intelligence/ambition/power than they have and minimally place a relative lesser value than do men on appearance. I wonder if the parallel follows even farther - are women attracted to men of looks as close to their own attractiveness level without going over as possible? In other words, is a women less likely to date a man who is significantly better looking than she is, and relatively more attracted to one who is just about as good looking as she is?
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