# Is there any evidence of a difference in temperment between the races **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 14, 2011, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892 "2011-05-14T13:13:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892/41 "2011-05-15T23:17:16Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Can you define “race” in any meaningful biological fashion? > [@snailboy](#): > > A collection of populations of humans with similar characteristics. How hard was that? Implicit in his question was the term “human race”. That’s not only hard, it’s impossible. ---
**Author:** ![snailboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/97f17d/32.png) [@snailboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snailboy)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892/42 "2011-05-15T23:21:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Implicit in his question was the term “human race”. That’s not only hard, it’s impossible. I just defined what a race is with regards to humans. If that’s not what the question was asking, I’m not sure what. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892/43 "2011-05-15T23:47:11Z")
> [@snailboy](#): > > I just defined what a race is with regards to humans. If that’s not what the question was asking, I’m not sure what. The question was to define it in a biological meaningful way. That’s an interesting definition, but if you try to apply it in a biologically meaningful way to the human species, you will come up dry. We’ve been through this dozens of times on this MB in both GD and GQ, so it’s really not worthwhile doing it again. Physical characteristics in humans are clinal in nature, and so you can’t draw lines around certain groups without finding that they are physically similar to nearby groups. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892/44 "2011-05-15T23:55:37Z")
> [@snailboy](#): > > A collection of populations of humans with similar characteristics. How hard was that? “Similar characteristics” serves nicely to group (literally) anyone anywhere to anyone else (at your whim); regardless to group size, characteristic, or degree of similarity. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892/45 "2011-05-15T23:56:35Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > “Similar characteristics” serves nicely to group (literally) anyone anywhere to anyone else (at your whim); regardless to group size, characteristic, or degree of similarity. I’m racist against fat people. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892/46 "2011-05-15T23:58:14Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > The example I used in the OP is dogs. > Different breeds of dog have different temperments - even if they are raised in exactly the same way, dogs of certain breeds are more likely to have certain dispositions (friendlier, less welcoming to strangers, more aggressive, less aggressive, etc) > This shows that temperment in animals is due in large part to genes - upbringing is not total (though obviously with good training dogs can overcome their natural inclinations, and individuals in a breed may differ from the breed norm. To hell with temperament; with enough time and diligent selection, you can breed a Stinkhorn to a Dachshund (bark n’ all). All this still doesn’t have much to do with the price of tea in China. As noted in many of the previous posts; unlike dogs, humans are not bred. Humans have never been bred. Those race groups you are preaching (but refusing to define) are not dog breeds. They are a genetically **heterogeneous** group(s) of humans that you haphazardly cleave and split to satisfy a discarded, discredited, 18th century based, colour-coded, social construct. That set of physical characteristics (hair form, eye shape, skin colour) that you use to delimit “the races” is arbitrary, irrelevant and based on historical comfort/cultural mythology -opposed to any genetic importance. There are literally hundreds of other physical and genetic characteristics (hair colour, blood type, height, presence of gene “x,” etc) that you don’t use as “race markers” simply because they won’t give you your historical (and mythologically important) black/white/yellow/etc races. > [@](#): > > It seems silly that you can point to animals and say “this breed is more aggressive” “this breed isn’t as intelligent” “this breed is more good with children”, and then say “but there is absolutely no effect in humans. None, and you are an idiot and a closet-racist for bringing it up”. “The races” are not breeds. “The Races” are not proxies for biological similarity. One needs **cause** for “effect;” there is no **cause** (breeding), thus “no effect.” As for “closet-racist” your OP has a trifecta of two paragraphs of you asserting the biological importance of race, one more on “African crimes” and two (leading) questions on temperament/aggression between “the races.” No one has called you a racist (thus far), but **Sailboat** did call it “slanted.” You’ll live. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892/47 "2011-05-16T00:01:04Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > 1. Is there any evidence that there are differences in temperment between the races? When this question is asked, most definitely. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892/48 "2011-05-16T01:23:46Z")
> [@snailboy](#): > > A collection of populations of humans with similar characteristics. How hard was that? As **John** says, that’s not a meaningful definition. How similar do the populations have to be to be classified as belonging to the same race, and how different must populations be to belong to different races? What characteristics are you taking into account? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892/49 "2011-05-16T01:36:32Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I’m racist against fat people. But…I hear their northern population has a jolly temperament…😃 ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892/50 "2011-05-16T02:20:43Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Sorry to post anecdotes about an ethnicity here mods, but I feel it’s necessary to point out that of the dozen or so people I’ve known who identified themselves as Armenian, not a single one could be characterized as agressive. Some of my best friends are Jews. But they’re all lousy tippers. ---
**Author:** ![medicated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@medicated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/medicated)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892/51 "2011-05-16T02:22:47Z")
Sigh. The tired old discussion of race again. Sigh… For the umpteenth time in my online career, I’d like to point out that’s it’s interesting that those who define a question along racial lines always, always, always invent their races according to easily visible criteria such as skin colour, eyes, and hair. Lumping all (for eg.) sub-Saharan African populations into a single biological category is, at best, utterly demented. I know that others have said this, but it needs to be hammered home repeatedly for those that don’t seem to get it: in the context of the question, the word ‘race’ is pretty much meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![snailboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/97f17d/32.png) [@snailboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snailboy)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892/52 "2011-05-16T02:47:18Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > As **John** says, that’s not a meaningful definition. How similar do the populations have to be to be classified as belonging to the same race, and how different must populations be to belong to different races? What characteristics are you taking into account? What characteristics do we use to classify different species into genera, different genera into families, etc? I never said it would be an objective distinction. The only taxonomical level with an objective definition is species, and even still biologists can’t decide if different types of animals should be in the same species, such as the gray wolf and red wolf. Now what’s the difference in deciding which populations belong to a race and deciding at what point our ancestors were no longer Homo sapiens, or no longer Homo? The lines may be blurry, but there’s no doubt people of Italian and Spanish descent are more similar to each other than Vietnamese who are more similar to Japanese. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892/53 "2011-05-16T03:48:00Z")
> [@snailboy](#): > > What characteristics do we use to classify different species into genera, different genera into families, etc? I never said it would be an objective distinction. Completely irrelevant to the discussion. > [@](#): > > The only taxonomical level with an objective definition is species, and even still biologists can’t decide if different types of animals should be in the same species, such as the gray wolf and red wolf. Again irrelevant to the discussion. > [@](#): > > Now what’s the difference in deciding which populations belong to a race and deciding at what point our ancestors were no longer Homo sapiens, or no longer Homo? Irrelevant to the discussion. > [@](#): > > The lines may be blurry, but there’s no doubt people of Italian and Spanish descent are more similar to each other than Vietnamese who are more similar to Japanese. So what? The lines are blurry across the board; there is no objective criterion for distinguishing the traditional human races. If you think it can be done, please provide the relevant criteria. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892/54 "2011-05-16T14:27:36Z")
> [@Implicit](#): > > What “race” are Armenians? The Arms Race. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892/55 "2011-05-16T14:40:56Z")
> [@snailboy](#): > > What characteristics do we use to classify different species into genera, different genera into families, etc? I never said it would be an objective distinction. The only taxonomical level with an objective definition is species, and even still biologists can’t decide if different types of animals should be in the same species, such as the gray wolf and red wolf. Now what’s the difference in deciding which populations belong to a race and deciding at what point our ancestors were no longer Homo sapiens, or no longer Homo? The lines may be blurry, but there’s no doubt people of Italian and Spanish descent are more similar to each other than Vietnamese who are more similar to Japanese. Where do you draw the line between the Italians and the Vietnamese? Describe the border where people on one side of the border look distinctly different from people on the other side of the border. If you can’t do that (and you won’t be able to), then talking about those populations as races is meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![CutterJohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@CutterJohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CutterJohn)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892/56 "2011-05-16T17:34:37Z")
1. No 2. No 3. Its possible and probably likely that there are minor differences between regional populations in various different mental attributes as there are in physical attributes, and very likely that these wouldn’t amount to spit compared to differences that result from culture and education. Possible. Difficult if not nearly impossible to test for. And would be actively detrimental anyway since its of no practical value, and bigots the world over would seize upon those inconsequential differences as justification for their idiocy, and would undoubtedly still get it totally wrong. ---
**Author:** ![snailboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/97f17d/32.png) [@snailboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snailboy)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892/57 "2011-05-16T20:17:08Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > So what? The lines are blurry across the board; there is no objective criterion for distinguishing the traditional human races. > > If you think it can be done, please provide the relevant criteria. The lines are blurry for almost every taxonomical structure. I’m sure I don’t need to tell you there were dinosaurs that didn’t fit nicely into either reptilia or aves, fish with amphibian traits, etc. How do you go about classifying them? I’m not going to pretend that it’s possible to come up with criteria that separate human races with no one blurring the lines, but don’t act like other taxonomical classifications are different. It’s all subjective. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892/58 "2011-05-16T20:24:18Z")
> [@snailboy](#): > > The lines are blurry for almost every taxonomical structure. I’m sure I don’t need to tell you there were dinosaurs that didn’t fit nicely into either reptilia or aves, fish with amphibian traits, etc. How do you go about classifying them? I’m not going to pretend that it’s possible to come up with criteria that separate human races with no one blurring the lines, but don’t act like other taxonomical classifications are different. It’s all subjective. I don’t think thats really true. There are objective standards to what taxonomical category things are in. If you walk current day taxonomical categories back in time things can get difficult because one category may arise from another, (aves from reptillia, for example) and because actually determining whether a given species met an objective standard is hard when you just have fossils to work with, but its not really because they’re subjective. The categories themselves are based on discrete morphological features, they’re pretty much the opposite of being subjective. ---
**Author:** ![Wakinyan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wakinyan/32/352_2.png) [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892/59 "2011-05-16T22:30:19Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > … Swedish rape statistics … The reasons Sweden seems to have most rapes in Europe is not necessarily because there are more rapes committed in Sweden than in other countries; the number shows how many rapes are reported, not committed. In Sweden, when somebody reports a rape (or other crime), it goes into these statistics as “a rape”. In other countries, the rape goes into the statistics when the crime has been investigated. There are cultural differences too; in some countries, women are more reluctant to report rape, for various reasons; for instance, they know it is no point, the man won’t get sentenced. In Sweden, a relatively high percentence of accused rapists go to jail, which is one reason Swedish women more often report it. Also, if a man is reported to rape his spouse on many different occasions, each occasion is noted as one rape; that is, if a woman says, “he raped me ten times”, before it is investigated, the number ten goes into the statistics. Also, \*attempted \*rapes is noted in the same numbers in Sweden. This is not the case for many other countries. Another thing is that when scientists are investigating these matters, women in Sweden (and Norway and Finland) more often answers, than in other countries. So there seem to be more rape victims in Scandinavia than in the Mediterranean countries for instance where women more often choose not to answer such questions. Lastly, the legal definition of “rape” is different in different countries (the Julian Assange accusation is an example), which also should be taken into notice. All this put together makes Sweden look like it has most rapes in Europe, but once again, it isn’t necessarily so. One should be careful with statistics. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892/60 "2011-05-16T22:54:28Z")
> [@snailboy](#): > > The lines are blurry for almost every taxonomical structure. I’m sure I don’t need to tell you there were dinosaurs that didn’t fit nicely into either reptilia or aves, fish with amphibian traits, etc. How do you go about classifying them? I’m not going to pretend that it’s possible to come up with criteria that separate human races with no one blurring the lines, but don’t act like other taxonomical classifications are different. It’s all subjective. They’re not that blurry for extant species of mammals. Sure, there are some exceptions, but humans have a near-unique ability among mammals to defy geographic barriers and populate pretty much any territory. We travel and mate and blend so that true genetically isolated populations just don’t exist. There’s no “goat that only lives in this isolated valley in the remote Ural mountains” type of thing with humans. Furthermore, we use DNA testing to determine the relatedness of populations of animals now and that makes everything much more objective than working from morphological comparisons (which still can usually be reduced to specific metrics rather than some subjective judgment call). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evidence-of-a-difference-in-temperment-between-the-races/581892.md?page=4)