# Is there any evolutionary value in believing in God(s)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2003, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900 "2003-08-13T13:35:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900/21 "2003-08-13T20:30:09Z")
Well, if Nietzche can be believed, religion is what allows weak (but smart) individuals to avoid being killed by their strong (yet stupid) fellow man. If I, being a comparative weakling, cannot stop the strong from talking what is mine (life, liberty, property, etc.), I will likely not live to pass on my genes. Therefore, there is an evolutionary advantage if I can come up with a scheme by which the strong can be convinced that they shouldn’t take what belongs to me. Convincing them that I have spoken with “God,” that he has said that I am his chosen “person,” and that everybody who disobeys me (I mean him) is doomed to eternal damnation, well, that’s a pretty slik scheme if i do say so myself. How’s that? Barry ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900/22 "2003-08-13T21:49:58Z")
[Plato distinguishes four degrees of knowledge:](http://radicalacademy.com/philplato1.htm) > [@](#): > > \*\ ***Apprehension of pure sense images** , such as dreams and imaginations; > > \*\ ***Perceptive knowledge of sensible objects** , the purpose of which is to form a particular judgment, such as “This rose is red;…this light is beautiful”; > > \*\ ***Mathematical knowledge** – for instance, the apprehension of the particular shape of the perceived rose (Plato observes that mathematical apprehension can be held also independently of any object – circularity can be apprehended in itself, independently of a circular object); > > \*\ ***Philosophical knowledge** , which consists in the apprehension of the Ideas, as absolute, unconditioned and eternal realities. > The first two degrees constitute what Plato calls opinion, because the things appear in this manner, but they could appear also in a different manner. The last two degrees constitute true understanding, because their object is the reality which is, and which cannot be otherwise. (See “The Myth of the Cave” in Plato’s Republic, VII, 1-3.) > > The four degrees of knowledge may be reduced to two fundamental classes: > > + **Sense knowledge** , which includes apprehension of sensorial images, and perception of sensible objects; > > + **Intellective knowledge** , which includes mathematical notions and knowledge of ideas. > For Plato, the inferior degrees constitute knowledge in so far as they express the necessity of something which transcends them; they are steps through which the soul ascends to the world of Ideas. The soul, which understands that its happiness consists in the world of Ideas, never is satisfied with the knowledge of the inferior degrees. Thus it appeals from the inferior to the superior degrees, till the knowledge of Ideas is reached. This continuous dissatisfaction of the soul is what Plato calls Love or Eros, the god of love. (See “The Myth of Eros” in the Symposium.) ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900/23 "2003-08-14T01:38:02Z")
[Here](http://www.nonfictionreviews.com/cgi-bin/ae.pl?mode=1&article=article1146.art&page=1) is a book on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900/24 "2003-08-14T01:40:56Z")
If you haven’t already noticed, the vast majority of humanity isn’t genuinely rational. When you realize that Aristotle, when discussing “the rational animal”, wasn’t actually referring to human beings in general, his works make a lot more sense. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900/25 "2003-08-14T03:15:09Z")
Let’s see what came from the temple’s denizens worshipping God[s]: Law/Government Science Literature Music History/Mythology Writing Archiving University Those are just some. Only when these became secularized did the temple become a source of mockery. I would submit that many atheists know the value of morality and modesty. ---
**Author:** ![JustPlainBryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JustPlainBryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustPlainBryan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900/26 "2003-08-14T04:40:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, if Nietzche can be believed, religion is what allows weak (but smart) individuals to avoid being killed by their strong (yet stupid) fellow man. > > If I, being a comparative weakling, cannot stop the strong from talking what is mine (life, liberty, property, etc.), I will likely not live to pass on my genes. Therefore, there is an evolutionary advantage if I can come up with a scheme by which the strong can be convinced that they shouldn’t take what belongs to me. Convincing them that I have spoken with “God,” that he has said that I am his chosen “person,” and that everybody who disobeys me (I mean him) is doomed to eternal damnation, well, that’s a pretty slik scheme if i do say so myself. It seems like Nietzche is arguing in favor of religion. By his reasoning, if it weren’t for religion, we’d still be dominated by the physically strong, yet stupid. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900/27 "2003-08-14T04:54:45Z")
Religious people have an easier time finding mates. For example, if I go on a personal ad site and search for atheist women, only a few come up. However if I expand the search to include the religious, I have many more women to choose from. So perhaps there is an evolutionary advantage to believing in all that mummery. (this post is 1/5 tongue-in-cheek)😉 ---
**Author:** ![Soup\_du\_jour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Soup\_du\_jour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup_du_jour)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900/28 "2003-08-14T09:52:05Z")
Nietzsche would _never_ argue in favor of religion. Part of his philosophy is that the powerful should assert their natural dominance. It sounds like more of a lament that these scheming weaklings can somehow manage to keep the good, strong folks down. ---
**Author:** ![Somnambulist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Somnambulist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Somnambulist)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900/29 "2003-08-14T10:00:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimbo \* > \*\*A very good British science prog called Horizon did a episode about this recently [God on the Brain](http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml) > > Interesting stuff though \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by x-ray vision \* > \*\*Here is a book on the subject. \*\* Thanks, **yojimbo** and **x-ray vision** , these are the lines I was thinking on. ---
**Author:** ![JustPlainBryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JustPlainBryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustPlainBryan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900/30 "2003-08-14T15:11:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Soup\_du\_jour \* > \*\*Nietzsche would _never_ argue in favor of religion. Part of his philosophy is that the powerful should assert their natural dominance. It sounds like more of a lament that these scheming weaklings can somehow manage to keep the good, strong folks down. \*\* By his reasoning then, the ideal state would indeed be all of us ruled by the physically strong, yet stupid. In that case, I’m glad organized religions exist. ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900/31 "2003-08-14T15:40:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JustPlainBryan \* > **By his reasoning then, the ideal state would indeed be all of us ruled by the physically strong, yet stupid.** No, because according to Nietsche the ideal Ubermensch (or “Superman”) is both strong and smart – too smart to be deceived by the fantasies created by the weak to protect themselves. The ideal state would therefore be comprised entirely of strong, smart people. The week and the stupid would be subjugated equally. Barry ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900/32 "2003-08-14T15:43:03Z")
Nieztsche may be peachier, but Mill still fulfills. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900/33 "2003-08-14T16:02:46Z")
Am I the only one who thinks Nieztche reads like a pathetic outcast? I usually find talk of his ubermen rather sad, some unfulfillable fantasy of his. Anyway, intelligence has many ways to subdue physical strength; religous hocus-pocus is just one of them. ---
**Author:** ![JustPlainBryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JustPlainBryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustPlainBryan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900/34 "2003-08-14T16:04:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by godzillatemple \* > \*\*No, because according to Nietsche the ideal Ubermensch (or “Superman”) is both strong and smart – too smart to be deceived by the fantasies created by the weak to protect themselves. The ideal state would therefore be comprised entirely of strong, smart people. The week and the stupid would be subjugated equally. > > Barry \*\* It seems the flaw in that argument is that if such a thing as the Ubermensch did exist, they would already have subjugated the weak-but-smart from the long ago. Surely an Ubermensch could not be sujugated by the weak-but-smart with religion all this time. If that were true, the Ubermensch wouldn’t really have been so Uber. Unless the Ubermensch is a modern invention? If that were the case, then we have nothing to worry about because the Ubermensch will eventually triumph. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900/35 "2003-08-14T16:23:54Z")
Going back to the thread title… I would say yes… religion is ONE aspect of our Brain and evolution that allowed us to survive. Its part of social cohesion the same way sex and couple pairing allowed us to develop as better hunter gatherers. Still like all things evolutionary it might seem more appropiate to a more primitive setting. ``` So is religion a evolutionary legacy we will need to outgrow/evolve ? Just like our innate aggression might not be convenient anymore in modern society and is being curbed? Religious factors are among the highest barriers against integration and tolerance at a global level. If one thinks like me that the big religions are holding back enlightment of the population at large then certainly the downfall of the Vatican and other older religions is a step forward. (Presuming a global village and rational humans are the future of mankind however far that might be.) ``` ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900/36 "2003-08-14T16:34:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JustPlainBryan \* > \*\*It seems the flaw in that argument is that if such a thing as the Ubermensch did exist, they would already have subjugated the weak-but-smart from the long ago. > > Surely an Ubermensch could not be sujugated by the weak-but-smart with religion all this time. If that were true, the Ubermensch wouldn’t really have been so Uber. > > Unless the Ubermensch is a modern invention? If that were the case, then we have nothing to worry about because the Ubermensch will eventually triumph. Right? \*\* What makes you think that the Ubermensch haven’t already subjugated the weak-but-smart? What makes you think that the Ubermensch hasn’t already triumphed? But of course, that couldn’t be possible. Because if that were the case, they would have instituted societal controls that gave them tremendous influence and power over the masses but disguised the fact that they were holding the reins. If that were the case, civilizations would hold strange, illogical beliefs that nevertheless were accepted as truth by the majority of people. If that were the case, most people would believe comforting fictions that made them easy to pacify and direct. If that were the case, they would manipulate the teaching of history, psychology, and philosophy so that no one would take the idea of Ubermensch seriously. But, of course, that is not the case. ---
**Author:** ![JustPlainBryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JustPlainBryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustPlainBryan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900/37 "2003-08-14T17:05:53Z")
> [@](#): > > What makes you think that the Ubermensch haven’t already subjugated the weak-but-smart? What makes you think that the Ubermensch hasn’t already triumphed? That question should be directed to the Nieztchean philosphers. I think the whole argument is flawed because clearly the smart and the strong have always controlled organized religions. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900/38 "2003-08-14T17:12:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JustPlainBryan \* > \*\*That question should be directed to the Nieztchean philosphers. I think the whole argument is flawed because clearly the smart and the strong have always controlled organized religions. \*\* :smack: I think you should re-read my earlier post, and this time, turn your irony-sensors to MAXIMUM. ---
**Author:** ![JustPlainBryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JustPlainBryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustPlainBryan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900/39 "2003-08-14T17:14:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*:smack: > > I think you should re-read my earlier post, and this time, turn your irony-sensors to MAXIMUM. \*\* Holy Hannah! Lyndon LaRouche was right! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Somnambulist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Somnambulist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Somnambulist)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900/40 "2003-08-15T06:47:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rashak Mani \* > \*\* So is religion a evolutionary legacy we will need to outgrow/evolve ? Just like our innate aggression might not be convenient anymore in modern society and is being curbed? Religious factors are among the highest barriers against integration and tolerance at a global level. If one thinks like me that the big religions are holding back enlightment of the population at large then certainly the downfall of the Vatican and other older religions is a step forward. (Presuming a global village and rational humans are the future of mankind however far that might be.) \*\* Hear, hear! If there is evidence that religious conformity or a propensity for blind faith is an evolutionary legacy then I believe a better understanding of such would be a start to dismantling those barriers that you mention. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-evolutionary-value-in-believing-in-god-s/194900.md?page=3)