# Is there any existing language that is gender neutral? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 31, 2018, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900 "2018-07-31T22:49:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900/21 "2018-08-01T12:55:42Z")
Some languages do have classes of nouns (which might be called genders of nouns) which are partly based on sex and partly based on other distinctions: > **[List of languages by type of grammatical genders](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_type_of_grammatical_genders)** > > This article lists languages depending on their use of grammatical gender. > Certain language families, such as the Austronesian, Turkic and Uralic language families, usually have no grammatical genders (see genderless language). Many indigenous American languages (across language families) have no grammatical gender. > Austronesian > **[Noun class](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noun_class)** > > In linguistics, a noun class is a particular category of nouns. A noun may belong to a given class because of the characteristic features of its referent, such as gender, animacy, shape, but such designations are often clearly conventional. Some authors use the term "grammatical gender" as a synonym of "noun class", but others consider these different concepts. Noun classes should not be confused with noun classifiers. > There are three main ways by which natural languages categorize nouns into no... Post #12 wasn’t meant so much as a reply to you, Andy, as a general comment about this thread. Languages are a mess. It’s hard to make any sort of overall statement about languages. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900/22 "2018-08-01T14:08:15Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Post #12 wasn’t meant so much as a reply to you, Andy, as a general comment about this thread. Languages are a mess. It’s hard to make any sort of overall statement about languages. Agreed. The more I learn about languages the fewer generalities I can find (other than “languages do a lot of different things, in more different ways than I’d expect”). ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900/23 "2018-08-01T15:06:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > As an aside, how is “hir” supposed to be pronounced? To my eye, it looks like it would be pronounced the same as “her”, or very close to it, which would defeat the purpose. The way I’ve heard it is “here”. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900/24 "2018-08-01T15:33:04Z")
To my mother, all dogs take a male pronoun, and all cats a female one. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900/25 "2018-08-01T15:49:46Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > To my mother, all dogs take a male pronoun, and all cats a female one. Your mother as well as any other German speaker. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900/26 "2018-08-01T16:28:54Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I don’t have a problem with “singular they” but I have literally never heard it refer to a known, specific person. I’ve heard “Everyone should pick up their books.” rather than “Everyone should pick up his _his_ books” or “Everyone should pick up _his or her_ books”.But I’ve never heard “Frank should pick up their books” to mean Frank’s own books - in that construction we still gendered pronouns. It’s used quite often when you know of a specific person but not their gender details. For example, “Frank said his cousin was coming into town next week and they need a place to stay.” or “Amy’s boss Sam was really mean to her last week. They really should watch it or Amy’s going to quit soon!”. For people who profess grammatical discomfort with the singular they, I’ll note that we use it with great frequency on internet forums where we know the handle but not any identifying details of the people we’re interacting with. For example, it would be quite natural for me to say “doreen should edit their post” because I don’t want to assume gender. For genderqueer people you’re interacting in real life, just assume they’re an internet friend, only IRL and the grammar challenges disappear. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900/27 "2018-08-01T17:56:46Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > People aren’t gender-neutral, so why should their languages be? Because gender in a grammar sense means “class of word” (not limited to humans or necessarily linked to sex), gender in a sociological sense means “preconceptions based on perceived sex”, and different societies/cultures/languages have different classifications for people. ---
**Author:** ![Reindeer\_Flotilla](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reindeer_flotilla/32/3024_2.png) [@Reindeer\_Flotilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reindeer_Flotilla)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900/28 "2018-08-01T18:40:02Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Because gender in a grammar sense means “class of word” (not limited to humans or necessarily linked to sex), gender in a sociological sense means “preconceptions based on perceived sex”, and different societies/cultures/languages have different classifications for people. Exactly, which is why English is very gender neutral relative to most languages, especially the Romance ones (and Germanic, thanks Normans and the great U shift!) I’ve noticed even its pronoun usage is morphing to “they” instead of “he or she” in many instances, especially in the workplace. For example, it’s more common to hear “To the person who cleaned up the kitchen, they really did a good job” or “If anyone has a problem with the new expense report, they can see me for help”. The “he or she” construct almost seems to sound archaic in professional and college settings these days. I’ve wondered if that’s the result of the past couple of decades of greatly increased gender diversity in those locations, and the convenience of just using the shorter “they” in English speech to be more inclusive. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900/29 "2018-08-01T20:17:02Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > The way I’ve heard it is “here”. But that’s neither hir nor they’re as far as mainstream English is concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900/30 "2018-08-01T20:49:50Z")
Admit it, **Derleth** , you’ve been waiting for the perfect opportunity to spring that, haven’t you? ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900/31 "2018-08-01T21:40:39Z")
It’s hard to shed a tir for a pronoun so ill-conceived that no monolingual speaker of English has any way of figuring out how to pronounce it. I can’t say I fir for the language, but I hope something clirer can be found. It may be historical - I don’t kerr. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900/32 "2018-08-01T22:49:03Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Because gender in a grammar sense means “class of word” (not limited to humans or necessarily linked to sex), gender in a sociological sense means “preconceptions based on perceived sex”, and different societies/cultures/languages have different classifications for people. And the “masculine/feminine” divide isn’t the only possible one for grammatical gender: [Ojibwe has an “animate/inanimate” divide](http://imp.lss.wisc.edu/jrvalent/AIS/Grammar/InflMorphology/nouns001.htm), Navajo has a continuum of animacy (Human \> Infant/Big Animal \> Medium-sized Animal \> Small Animal \> Natural Force \> Abstraction), and [Russian has a rather more complicated system, because of course](http://www.study-languages-online.com/russian-animate-inanimate.html). > **[Animacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animacy)** > > Animacy (antonym: inanimacy) is a grammatical and semantic feature, existing in some languages, expressing how sentient or alive the referent of a noun is. Widely expressed, animacy is one of the most elementary principles in languages around the globe and is a distinction acquired as early as six months of age. > Concepts of animacy constantly vary beyond a simple animate and inanimate binary; many languages function off of a hierarchical general animacy scale that ranks animacy as a "matter of g... English has lost all of its purely grammatical gender, so we don’t have a word for “little girl” (_Mädchen_) which is grammatically neuter, as the Germans do, and as we Anglophones likely _would_ had English kept closer to the basal linguistic form of Old English\*, so it’s hard for people who only speak English to grasp the distinction between grammatical gender and natural gender. It isn’t strictly true that natural gender has no bearing on grammatical gender (in Spanish, _mujer_ (woman) is feminine and _hombre_ (man) is masculine, as one would expect) but it’s good to keep the distinction between grammatical and natural gender in mind, especially when someone’s telling you that a table is quite masculine indeed! 😉 \*(Or not. Language evolves in odd ways, sometimes, and I’m sure words can change genders over time.) > [@Chronos](#): > > Admit it, **Derleth** , you’ve been waiting for the perfect opportunity to spring that, haven’t you? I thought it up pretty much on the spot, as a matter of fact. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900/33 "2018-08-01T22:57:59Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > From the Wikipedia link - > > “Bengali lacks grammatical gender. Pronouns and adjectives do not change regardless of the gender being addressed. Semantic gender does exist in nouns, although it would still be considered grammatically valid to omit gendered nouns when not explicitly describing the gender of the subject.” > > My parents were forced immigrants to British made India from British made Bangladesh. I grew up learning the local language (Hindi) but my parents (especially my Mom) had a tough time. She could talk Hindi but got the genders mixed up. Many would laugh (in good spirits) at this. Even we as kids sometimes made fun of her. > > But, now me living in USA, for so many years, life has come back full circle. And I see the benefits of having a gender less language. My mom says - “Who is laughing now!!??” As a Bengali speaker myself I can say that this is true for the most part but there are some exceptions. For example, if you say “He/she is beautiful,” in Bengali, the pronoun is genderless but the adjective “beautiful” is gendered. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900/34 "2018-08-02T13:18:19Z")
The Waali language of northern Ghana is mostly genderless. There is a single pronoun for he/she/it and another for they. There are separate words for man and woman, but a single word for child. If you want to say boy you have to say child-man, girl is child-woman. Their society, on the other hand, generally follows traditional gender roles. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900/35 "2018-08-02T18:20:07Z")
Japanese gets close. There are gendered pronouns, but pronouns (esp. third person) in Japanese aren’t as common, and not all of them are gendered. It’s probably more common to hear some variation of “that person”, the person’s name, or just omitting the subject/object entirely, than any pronouns similar to our he/she/they. However, Japanese has a lot of words that have implicit or explicit gender, such as a lot of professions or titles with 女 (woman) tacked on somewhere making it a female version (most of this being borrowed from Chinese). More to the point, it’s a known translation problem that Japanese is so good at unintentionally talking around gender sometimes that translators have to just pick one if there are no official sources detailing what it was supposed to be. I think there have even been cases where translators assumed one and then a sequel made the gender clear and they were stuck in a hard spot, but this was more common a couple decades ago when translators tended to have less contact with the creators. Note that Japanese is a pretty gendered language to speak, though. It’s easy to talk **about** someone without mentioning their gender. It’s somewhat more common (especially in fiction) for people to speak or word things in a way that makes their gender really obvious. Japanese has very commonly used gendered **first person pronouns** of all things. Very subtle things in casual speech can be revealing, such as omitting the copula from a sentence being quite feminine. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900/36 "2018-08-02T19:24:29Z")
It is misleading to say that Japanese has gendered pronouns. There are some eg first person pronouns that a woman would not use but a man would, or that only a social superior would use, or only an old person would, etc., and you could tell a speaker’s sex and so forth by the manner of his or her speech, but this is not due to grammatical gender. Except that Japanese does have grammatical gender! Sort of. There are dozens of noun classes reflected in counter words: machines are in one category, people in another, thin, flat objects in another, long, thin objects in another, small animals in one, big animals in a different one… And of course there are words for men vs women, male relatives vs female relatives, etc., but what there isn’t is an Indo-European he/she/it grammatical gender. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2018, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900/37 "2018-08-03T07:39:33Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > It is misleading to say that Japanese has gendered pronouns. There are some eg first person pronouns that a woman would not use but a man would, or that only a social superior would use, or only an old person would, etc., and you could tell a speaker’s sex and so forth by the manner of his or her speech, but this is not due to grammatical gender. > > Except that Japanese does have grammatical gender! Sort of. There are dozens of noun classes reflected in counter words: machines are in one category, people in another, thin, flat objects in another, long, thin objects in another, small animals in one, big animals in a different one… > > And of course there are words for men vs women, male relatives vs female relatives, etc., but what there isn’t is an Indo-European he/she/it grammatical gender. The thread isn’t about grammatical gender though, it’s about languages where you’re often gender ambiguous by default when talking about people. Grammatical gender is part of that, but common words that betray gender are as well. You’re correct that strictly speaking I was incorrect in calling them “gendered first person pronouns” but I didn’t know how else to refer to it (“first person pronouns that betray gender”?) And there are third person gendered pronouns, technically. 彼女 and 彼, though in practice you’re probably more likely to hear them meaning “girlfriend” and “boyfriend”. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2018, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900/38 "2018-08-03T10:22:12Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Your mother as well as any other German speaker. This is probably a good place to mention “The Tale of the Fishwife and Its Sad Fate” > [@Mark Twain](#): > > It is a bleak Day. Hear the Rain, how he pours, and the Hail, how he rattles; and see the Snow, how he drifts along, and of the Mud, how deep he is! Ah the poor Fishwife, it is stuck fast in the Mire; it has dropped its Basket of Fishes; and its Hands have been cut by the Scales as it seized some of the falling Creatures; and one Scale has even got into its Eye, and it cannot get her out. It opens its Mouth to cry for Help; but if any Sound comes out of him, alas he is drowned by the raging of the Storm. And now a Tomcat has got one of the Fishes and she will surely escape with him. No, she bites off a Fin, she holds her in her Mouth – will she swallow her? No, the Fishwife’s brave Mother-dog deserts his Puppies and rescues the Fin – which he eats, himself, as his Reward. O, horror, the Lightning has struck the Fish-basket; he sets him on Fire; see the Flame, how she licks the doomed Utensil with her red and angry Tongue; now she attacks the helpless Fishwife’s Foot – she burns him up, all but the big Toe, and even she is partly consumed; and still she spreads, still she waves her fiery Tongues; she attacks the Fishwife’s Leg and destroys it; she attacks its Hand and destroys her also; she attacks the Fishwife’s Leg and destroys her also; she attacks its Body and consumes him; she wreathes herself about its Heart and it is consumed; next about its Breast, and in a Moment she is a Cinder; now she reaches its Neck – he goes; now its Chin – it goes; now its Nose – she goes. In another Moment, except Help come, the Fishwife will be no more. Time presses – is there none to succor and save? Yes! Joy, joy, with flying Feet the she-Englishwoman comes! But alas, the generous she-Female is too late: where now is the fated Fishwife? It has ceased from its Sufferings, it has gone to a better Land; all that is left of it for its loved Ones to lament over, is this poor smoldering Ash-heap. Ah, woeful, woeful Ash-heap! Let us take him up tenderly, reverently, upon the lowly Shovel, and bear him to his long Rest, with the Prayer that when he rises again it will be a Realm where he will have one good square responsible Sex, and have it all to himself, instead of having a mangy lot of assorted Sexes scattered all over him in Spots. > [@Andy\_L](#): > > From Wendell’s list, Finnish is a good example Hungarian likewise (from the same Finno-Ugric family). My Hungarian grandmother frequently muddled up English gendered pronouns (him/her etc). > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Gender queer or Non-binary gender folks often prefer “they” to "him or “her”. That’s mainly where you’ll hear it. > > The Showtime show _Billions_ has a main character who is gender queer (or some sort of non-binary gender) and when the character first meets the boss, the dialog is: “My name is Taylor. My pronouns are they, them and their”. The other characters always refer to Taylor as “they”, even when they are royally pissed off at… them. I was always impressed and slightly sceptical with the way every single character (except Dollar Bill) not just immediately accepted this but never stumbled and used a gendered pronoun accidentally, but then it’s a television show, not reality. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2018, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900/39 "2018-08-04T05:53:12Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Except that Japanese does have grammatical gender! Sort of. There are dozens of noun classes reflected in counter words: machines are in one category, people in another, thin, flat objects in another, long, thin objects in another, small animals in one, big animals in a different one… Sorry, being dense here. Are you saying that the various counters make a sort of grammatical gender? 😕 How does counting bottles differently than cans make a grammatical _gender_? Or am I missing your point? > [@Jragon](#): > > And there are third person gendered pronouns, technically. 彼女 and 彼, though in practice you’re probably more likely to hear them meaning “girlfriend” and “boyfriend”. I’m not sure I agree with the “technically” qualifier. As you state, the terms are used in both senses, as “girlfriend” and “boyfriend” and to refer to males and females in general, although not as frequently as in English. It these terms were never used in the latter case then I could see calling them “technically.” ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2018, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900/40 "2018-08-04T08:36:38Z")
What DPRK means by “counters” is what’s usually called “classifiers” in linguistics. In languages with classifiers, when you say to a listener that there are X of something, you (for instance) have to insert a classifier to tell what sort of object it is that you’re telling the listener that there are X of. (The following three examples are just an example of what’s done with classifiers.) So in a language with classifiers, to say that there are five cows, you have to say something like “five [animal classifier] cows”. To say that there are twelve pencils, you have to say something like “twelve [long thin object classifier] pencil”. To say that there are eighteen cars, you have to say something like “eighteen [mechanical object classifier] cars”. The range of different classifiers differs in each language with classifiers, and the order of number/classifier/object differs too. This is very strange to anyone who’s never encountered a language with classifiers before, I realize. Here’s a couple of Wikipedia entries you might want to read to understand this: > **[Classifier (linguistics)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classifier_(linguistics))** > > A classifier (abbreviated .mw-parser-output span.smallcaps{font-variant:small-caps}.mw-parser-output span.smallcaps-smaller{font-size:85%}clf or cl) is a word or affix that accompanies nouns and can be considered to "classify" a noun depending on the type of its referent. It is also sometimes called a measure word or counter word. Classifiers play an important role in certain languages, especially East Asian languages, including Chinese, Korean, Japanese, and Vietnamese. Classifiers are absent In... > **[Chinese classifier](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_classifier)** > > The modern Chinese varieties make frequent use of what are called classifiers or measure words. One use of classifiers is when a noun is qualified by a numeral known as a noun phrase. When a phrase such as "one person" or "three books" is translated into Chinese, it is normally necessary to insert an appropriate classifier between the numeral and the noun. For example, in Standard Mandarin,\[note 1\] the first of these phrases would be 一个人 yí gè rén, where yī means "one",\[note 2\] rén means "person"... The point is that classifiers break nouns up into classes just like genders break nouns up into classes. The classes that classifiers break nouns up into sometimes includes having separate classifiers for male and female objects. As I said earlier, languages are a mess. If you haven’t looked at lots of languages, you don’t realize how diverse and contradictory the ways are that languages split up their words. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-existing-language-that-is-gender-neutral/818900.md?page=3)