# Is there any future in programming?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-future-in-programming/234418
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [March 15, 2004, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-future-in-programming/234418 "2004-03-15T13:50:26Z")
**Posts on this page:** 18
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-future-in-programming/234418/61 "2004-03-21T01:05:01Z")
You guys may want to read the articles on this site [(link)](http://www.joelonsoftware.com/navLinks/fog0000000247.html). He has written a lot of useful stuff, not only about programming but also about interviewing, hiring and so on.
---
### Author:  [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2004, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-future-in-programming/234418/62 "2004-03-21T01:09:25Z")
> [@Revtim](#):
>
> **laigle** , do you know a web site to search for these jobs? As unpleasant as you make them sound, it’s a step up from where I am.
I got mine from a career fair at a local college, but there were a couple sites I used to go to. Here’s one that is run (from what I gathered) by the Army Corp of Engineers:
[USAJOBS](http://jobsearch.usajobs.opm.gov/)
It has both government and civilian contractor positions. The job requirements are written in some sort of incomprehensible governmentese that gets cut and pasted into every entry, I just sent in a resume for anything that seemed vaguely in my area.
NASA runs their own site:
[NASA Jobs](http://nasajobs.nasa.gov/)
The entries are a bit confusing here too. Plus occasionally you run across something requiring six PhDs and experience working with dilithium crystals, which can be quite damaging to the ego.
I never got any callbacks from those sites, but I only found them towards the end of my search period. My advice would be to do some research on smaller firms in this genre, because there tend to be a lot of them. If you’re anywhere near a military base it might be worth a call or trip to find out who they do local contracting with, because they really do outsource core functions like nobody’s business, everything from networking to plane maintenance.
Good luck, and remember, drinking heavily always helps.
---
### Author:  [@5cents](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5cents)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2004, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-future-in-programming/234418/63 "2004-03-21T02:54:24Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#):
>
> It is not in fact immoral to apply for a job even though your experience and education don’t exactly match what’s called for in the ad. Many ads are written by people who don’t know what they’re doing and are misttating their requirements.
The problem is that the hiring managers are techies, and don’t know how to write job descriptions. Helping them out are HR folks who supposedly know how to write job desciptions, but wouldn’t know a computer if it hit them on the head.
Imagine a hiring manager telling HR “I need experienced Java programmers!”. You know that it can’t be a complete job description, since there are many specialties in programming that can use Java (or some other language) as their tool to express ideas into working programs. So the HR manager starts asking questions. How many years do you mean by experienced? What version of Java are you using? What other programs do you use? What computers do you use? Out of this dance will come a job description like:
We are looking for Java 1.3.2 programmers with at least 5 years experience. Candidates should also have 5 years of experience with WebLogic 8.1 and Windows 2000, and be able to use Microsoft Word 2000 to create reports and documentation.
Of course this description is silly. The specific version numbers really don’t mean much, and none of the versions have been around for 5 years. What they really are looking for is a programmer who has experience writing EJBs and can write documentation. Actual word processing progam, operating system, EJB server, and Java version really doesn’t make much of a difference. Even Java itself might not make much of a difference, if you find somebody who’s bright but hasn’t programmed in Java before.
You can write a cover letter than addresses all these points, doesn’t lie, but says enough to get you through the HR filter and onto the desk of the hiring manager. For instance, if you have Java and EJB experience, but haven’t used WebLogic, you could write “I have programmed in Java for 7 years, and have worked with EJB servers, such as WebLogic”. On a quick reading, it looks like you have WebLogic experience, but all you have said is that you have worked with EJB servers.
---
### Author:  [@5cents](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5cents)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2004, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-future-in-programming/234418/64 "2004-03-21T03:16:39Z")
> [@laigle](#):
>
> (about USAJobs, NASAJobs…) I never got any callbacks from those sites, but I only found them towards the end of my search period
If you are in private business and you find somebody (at a conference, through personal recommendation, etc) that will be perfect for your company, you simply hire them. It might not be quite that simple, you might have to escalate it to somebody high enough to overrule regular HR practice, but it can be done, and quickly. The job will never be posted.
It ain’t so in the government. They frown upon this type of hiring. They have binders full of rules that is supposed to not allow this type of hiring, and you generally can’t go high enough above HR to overrule it. But of course it is still done. You write a job description that only one person can fit. If you see a job posting that is up for only a week with really specific education and skill requirements that seem to be a bit diverse (i.e. degrees in physics and fine art, speaks Russian and Congolese, and can play the Ukelele), chances are you have run into a posting that is just for one person. There are a lot of these, and you’ll save yourself time by just ignoring these.
---
### Author:  [@Inoshiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inoshiro)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2004, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-future-in-programming/234418/65 "2004-03-21T04:11:09Z")
> [@laigle](#):
>
> A word of advice. Don’t ignore the military contracting field. I’m currently a “mechanical engineer” for a military contracter that does parts tracking (this is fancy talk for I mostly do data entry and occasionally help them set up new parts because none of the staff understand machines). The job is completely secure because some of the things they handle are classified and it’s too expensive to just run that part of the operation seperately and offshore the rest. Not a good job, actually a miserable soul-sucking terrible job that pays out like I’m a jailed Chinese dissident sewing Levis, but just barely better than living with my parents.
>
> So look around in that sector. Sort of. I need a drink now.
Yeah, exactly what I was saying in my original post here. I’m a DOD contractor too. Soul sucking, yeah that sums this stuff up alright.
---
### Author:  [@Inoshiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inoshiro)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2004, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-future-in-programming/234418/66 "2004-03-21T04:21:17Z")
> [@5cents](#):
>
> The problem is that the hiring managers are techies, and don’t know how to write job descriptions. Helping them out are HR folks who supposedly know how to write job desciptions, but wouldn’t know a computer if it hit them on the head.
The real tragedy is when they use an HR drone to do the first level interviews. I actually had the following happen to me once:
HRDrone: Have you programmed in Java?
Me: yes, for about 2 years.
HRDrone: And do you have any experience with object oriented programming?
Me: (getting angry and trying not to show it). Yes, Java is object oriented.
My pedantic attitude probably cost me the opportunity to work with that particular group of morons. Oh well, fuck 'em.
---
### Author:  [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2004, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-future-in-programming/234418/67 "2004-03-21T05:27:00Z")
> [@laigle](#):
>
> I got mine from a career fair at a local college, but there were a couple sites I used to go to. Here’s one that is run (from what I gathered) by the Army Corp of Engineers:
>
> [USAJOBS](http://jobsearch.usajobs.opm.gov/)
>
> It has both government and civilian contractor positions. The job requirements are written in some sort of incomprehensible governmentese that gets cut and pasted into every entry, I just sent in a resume for anything that seemed vaguely in my area.
>
> NASA runs their own site:
>
> [NASA Jobs](http://nasajobs.nasa.gov/)
>
> The entries are a bit confusing here too. Plus occasionally you run across something requiring six PhDs and experience working with dilithium crystals, which can be quite damaging to the ego.
>
> I never got any callbacks from those sites, but I only found them towards the end of my search period. My advice would be to do some research on smaller firms in this genre, because there tend to be a lot of them. If you’re anywhere near a military base it might be worth a call or trip to find out who they do local contracting with, because they really do outsource core functions like nobody’s business, everything from networking to plane maintenance.
>
> Good luck, and remember, drinking heavily always helps.
Thanks man, I already have the drinking heavily covered. Now I need the job to pay for the alcohol.
---
### Author:  [@mrblue92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrblue92)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2004, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-future-in-programming/234418/68 "2004-03-21T06:55:47Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#):
>
> I just don’t see it making that big a difference. Even with powerful new business-level tools, the author of a program still has to know what s/he is doing to write anything worthwhile. With the current split of good and bad engineers, these tools just aren’t going to be revolutionary.
I agree… and it’s not just engineers. Other posters have mentioned custom modifications to packaged business systems, and that’s basically been my bread and butter for my career.
As long as information is stored in databases, businesses will need people who have the ability to extract information from them in a meaningful way. And though certain software tools might provide a much more user-friendly interface to attach to complex structures, the ability to translate a unique user’s demands into a workable solution still depends on that user’s ability to figure out what data is needed, what is available, and what to do when those two answers don’t quite match. The day computers become advanced enough to replace the likes of application programmers is the day they’ll be able to replace pretty much any logically-based human job function.
> [@5cents](#):
>
> For instance, if you have Java and EJB experience, but haven’t used WebLogic, you could write “I have programmed in Java for 7 years, and have worked with EJB servers, such as WebLogic”. On a quick reading, it looks like you have WebLogic experience, but all you have said is that you have worked with EJB servers.
If that isn’t a “lie”, it’s at least an intentional misrepresentation (which might as well be a lie in my book). If I said I had “spent time with physicists, such as Stephen Hawking,” with the full intent to make people think I had actually spent time with Stephen Hawking, it’s effectively fraud. Moreover, I’d wager that if someone hired you under such circumstances, they’d probably have enough to win a lawsuit. Not that most employers would ever find out, but IMO I don’t think it really matters…
That said, I certainly agree that hiring managers often end up writing horribly high expectations into their job descriptions, but even some IT managers seem to have fallen prey… I had a couple interviews in December with a company in the-middle-of-nowhere Ohio for a Progress/Webspeed position–not exactly a hot commodity field, but I happen to have experience level they were asking for. Admittedly it was borderline, but I told them straightforwardly how much I had actually done. They didn’t make an offer, not because my Webspeed was less than spectacular, but because I didn’t have XML experience too, something that _wasn’t even on the job description to begin with_.
---
### Author:  [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2004, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-future-in-programming/234418/69 "2004-03-21T07:02:46Z")
> [@mrblue92](#):
>
> Moreover, I’d wager that if someone hired you under such circumstances, they’d probably have enough to win a lawsuit.
But the point (I think) is to get past the HR person and talk to the tech person. Once you are talking to them, you have to very specific and scrupulously honest about your abilities and experience. The point is to get the job. But it is also to make sure that you can do the job. It will do you very little good to get a job and then lose it for cause within 3 months.
Although I have heard stories of people who got away with being less than honest.
---
### Author:  [@mrblue92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrblue92)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2004, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-future-in-programming/234418/70 "2004-03-21T18:36:47Z")
> [@pervert](#):
>
> But the point (I think) is to get past the HR person and talk to the tech person…
Eh. I suppose it might work, but even disregarding the ethics of the thing, it still seems iffy because you put yourself in the position of either entering into a job under fraudlent pretense or having to admit that you fudged the cover letter in order to get the interview.
Of course some people are willing to risk this. My opinion (and action in my recent job hunt) is not to apply to positions that you don’t match the description of unless you intend to argue you are qualified in spite of the unrealistic requirements. I realize it’s wishful thinking on my part, but if companies were unable to get applicants because they wrote their requirements badly, maybe they’d learn to do a better job in the first place. 🙂
---
### Author:  [@5cents](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5cents)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-future-in-programming/234418/71 "2004-03-21T20:09:26Z")
> [@mrblue92](#):
>
> If that isn’t a “lie”, it’s at least an intentional misrepresentation (which might as well be a lie in my book). If I said I had “spent time with physicists, such as Stephen Hawking,” with the full intent to make people think I had actually spent time with Stephen Hawking, it’s effectively fraud.
Your analogy is a complete misrepresentation of my minor misrepresentation. The differences between EJB servers are a lot smaller than their similarities. That’s by design, BTW. It’s really more like “I’ve eaten ice cream, such as vanilla chocolate chip” (even if you’ve only eaten vanilla, chocolate, and strawberry).
You have to use this small lie to get past HR. It is the only way to get through to the actual hiring manager where you’ll tell them that you’ve had vanilla, chocolate and strawberry ice cream, so you’re pretty certain that vanilla chocolate chip won’t be much of a problem. The hiring manager can decide if that’s OK or not.
---
### Author:  [@5cents](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5cents)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2004, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-future-in-programming/234418/72 "2004-03-21T20:57:03Z")
> [@mrblue92](#):
>
> but if companies were unable to get applicants because they wrote their requirements badly, maybe they’d learn to do a better job in the first place. 🙂
The thing is they do get applicants, people like me who weasel their way past HR and into the chair opposite the hiring manager (i.e. the person who will be the supervisor of whoever gets hired) for an interview.
The fact is that they are advertising what they want. They might not get exactly what they want, but they will hire somebody. If your qualifications are in the ballpark, why not give it your best shot?
All I can say is it has worked for me. Since I finished college a dozen or so years ago, I’ve never been without a job, not even for a day. I have never been fired, and never even had a hint or suggestion that I was even close to being fired. Any job I have left was on my own terms (due to a move, or a better job).
---
### Author:  [@mrblue92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrblue92)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2004, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-future-in-programming/234418/73 "2004-03-21T23:25:23Z")
> [@5cents](#):
>
> Your analogy is a complete misrepresentation of my minor misrepresentation. The differences between EJB servers are a lot smaller than their similarities. That’s by design, BTW. It’s really more like “I’ve eaten ice cream, such as vanilla chocolate chip” (even if you’ve only eaten vanilla, chocolate, and strawberry).
What, “spending time” with a physicist, such as Stephen Hawking, is equivalent to co-writing a book? Anyway, I read _A Brief History of Time_… 😉
While it is probably true that different software packages within a limited subset are more similar than physicists, that does nothing to change a matter of _fact_, or lack thereof, worded in precisely the same manner. The degree of misrepresentation may be a mitigating factor, but the degree of a fraud doesn’t mean it is not fraudulent.
> [@](#):
>
> You have to use this small lie to get past HR.
Strictly speaking, no I don’t. Nor have I. There are a lot of jobs to apply to if one looks for them–some of which people can get _without actually having to lie_. Yea, I think I’ll do that, thanks. I mean, if I have to lie just to get in the friggin’ door, I know personally I’m really wondering if this is the sort of company I want to work for in the first place.
> [@](#):
>
> All I can say is it has worked for me. Since I finished college a dozen or so years ago, I’ve never been without a job, not even for a day. I have never been fired, and never even had a hint or suggestion that I was even close to being fired. Any job I have left was on my own terms (due to a move, or a better job).
While I did say it was iffy (strategically), I never claimed it wouldn’t “work”. Personally, I simply think it’s a bad idea. You know, an opinion. For the record, I’m not exactly hurting either.
Oh yea, and nice way to chop of the qualifying phrase from my sentence on your last post there. Thanks so much for screwing with the context.
---
### Author:  [@5cents](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5cents)
#### Post date: [March 22, 2004, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-future-in-programming/234418/74 "2004-03-22T07:39:08Z")
> [@mrblue92](#):
>
> Oh yea, and nice way to chop of the qualifying phrase from my sentence on your last post there. Thanks so much for screwing with the context.
???
---
### Author:  [@Scarf-Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarf-Ace)
#### Post date: [March 22, 2004, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-future-in-programming/234418/75 "2004-03-22T12:04:29Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Not a good job, actually a miserable soul-sucking terrible job that pays out like I’m a jailed Chinese dissident sewing Levis, but just barely better than living with my parents.
I think I might have a look at becoming a plumber, or maybe a masseuse. You can charge ridiculous amounts for an Indian head massage you know.
---
### Author:  [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)
#### Post date: [March 22, 2004, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-future-in-programming/234418/76 "2004-03-22T12:41:01Z")
> [@mrblue92](#):
>
> Strictly speaking, no I don’t. Nor have I. There are a lot of jobs to apply to if one looks for them–some of which people can get _without actually having to lie_.
Bully for you, mrblue. This does not change the fact that many ads misrepresent the jobs they’re supposed to describe, and that not taking them at face value is sometimes to the applicant’s advantage (they get the job) and the employer’s advantage (they get the employee they need, rather than the one described in the ad). Your rigid and formulaic approach may work for you, but I wouldn’t call it a general formula for success.
---
### Author:  [@mrblue92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrblue92)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2004, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-future-in-programming/234418/77 "2004-03-23T03:18:48Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#):
>
> Bully for you, mrblue.
I was only trying to provide a counterpoint, not generate approval. If **5cents** wishes to illustrate the success of his (or her?) strategy via his experience, it seemed appropriate to illustrate that it is not in all cases necessary for IT applicants to use it. (Contrary to what appeared to be the unqualified statement, “You have to use this small lie to get past HR.”)
> [@](#):
>
> This does not change the fact that many ads misrepresent the jobs they’re supposed to describe, and that not taking them at face value is sometimes to the applicant’s advantage (they get the job) and the employer’s advantage (they get the employee they need, rather than the one described in the ad).
I never said one needed to take ads “at face value”. In fact, as I already said, “My opinion… is not to apply to positions that you don’t match the description of unless you intend to argue you are qualified in spite of the unrealistic requirements.”
> [@](#):
>
> Your rigid and formulaic approach may work for you, but I wouldn’t call it a general formula for success.
And what, pray tell, _is_ a general formula for “success”?
Come to think of it, I might have to have you define “success” for me. Ever read any Plato? _sly grin_
---
### Author:  [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2004, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-future-in-programming/234418/78 "2004-03-23T04:11:50Z")
> [@Meta-Gumble](#):
>
> I think I might have a look at becoming a plumber, or maybe a masseuse. You can charge ridiculous amounts for an Indian head massage you know.
I did think about contracting/plumbing, but to rake in the money you need to work independently or in a small company. Small companies want experienced types, and I didn’t feel like laying in the startup capital for a job I didn’t actually want to do that wouldn’t lead somewhere. At least in my current position I have a job title that looks like I’m working in my field, and I can baldface it as a computer-skill intensive position.
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-future-in-programming/234418.md?page=3)