# Is there any good reason not to mandate national vaccination? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447 "2014-03-24T15:54:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/41 "2014-03-25T19:04:22Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Do most anti-vaxers use that excuse? I have a hard time believing McCarthy does that. That’s the excuse that will allow you to enroll your child in a public school without being up to date on the vaccination record. It’s called a “religious exemption.” I suppose you could invoke Ganesha or Thor, but God must have a starring role. Some States allow for “philosophical” objections, but not in my state. The letter has to mention a religious reason you cannot vaccinate, and it must be documented as part of an organized, recognized religion, which is where neopagans run into trouble with trying to do a religious exemption. If you’re not a member of a 501c3 recognized formal church, your religious beliefs don’t count. [http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/077006950000300R.html](http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/077006950000300R.html) ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/42 "2014-03-26T04:00:06Z")
Map of exemptions allowed by state: [http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/cc-exem.htm](http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/cc-exem.htm) ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/43 "2014-03-26T04:11:18Z")
Nothing should be mandatory. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/44 "2014-03-26T12:56:23Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Nothing should be mandatory. You bet. Leave those little brats at home, they don’t need schoolin’. They should be supporting the family with a nice factory job by the time they’re 10. ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/45 "2014-03-26T13:50:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [What about whooping cough?](http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/09/25/226147147/vaccine-refusals-fueled-californias-whooping-cough-epidemic) Be careful using Pertussis as your poster child. Your link provides no special evidence that anti-vaxers are the cause of Whooping Cough outbreaks, just a lot of speculation. This just leads to more questions than answers. Buried deep in that article you will find: “Pertussis is a cyclical disease. Protection from the current version of pertussis vaccine appears to fade more quickly than doctors originally thought, so many older children vaccinated as youngsters were no longer immune to the bacterium. “ My 17 year old daughter was diagnosed with Pertussis in late December. She is up to date on her immunizations and had the Pertussis booster at age 15. Three months later she still occasionally coughs like she is going to choke to death. The department of public health does not know where she contracted Pertussis as there has not been a cluster outbreak in our area, however, there have been half a dozen cases reported in our 3 county area. There is no direct link in any of these cases. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/46 "2014-03-26T14:22:30Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > Be careful using Pertussis as your poster child. Your link provides no special evidence that anti-vaxers are the cause of Whooping Cough outbreaks, just a lot of speculation. This just leads to more questions than answers. Vaccine refusers _are_ in fact [an element in increasing pertussis outbreaks](http://pediatrics.about.com/b/2012/04/25/why-so-many-pertussis-outbreaks.htm), just not the only one. \*"In a 2009 study that appeared in Pediatrics, researchers found that “vaccine refusers had a 23-fold increased risk for pertussis when compared with vaccine acceptors, and 11% of pertussis cases in the entire study population were attributed to vaccine refusal.” And since pertussis is highly contagious, with every primary case typically infecting as many as 17 other people, it makes sense that higher rates of children using vaccine exemptions could be at least one of the factors in these outbreaks. In fact, one article, “Geographic Clustering of Nonmedical Exemptions to School Immunization Requirements and Associations With Geographic Clustering of Pertussis,” found that “geographic pockets of vaccine refusal are associated with the risk of pertussis outbreaks in the whole community.”\* The article makes clear that pertussis vaccine, while not perfect, does substantially reduce the risk of the disease, and that declining immunity in older vaccinated children and adults due to waning vaccine protection should be improved through booster shots. ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/47 "2014-03-26T16:48:16Z")
That is why I pointed it out. Marley may have implied that 20 deaths were due to vaccine refusal when we clearly do not know that. It may be true, but the linked article doesn’t provide the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/48 "2014-03-26T18:54:28Z")
Anti-vaxxers are annoying for sure. Even more annoying, by several orders of magnitude, is an all encompassing government mandate that could pave the way for more intrusive mandates concerning you health. Instead of furthering the nanny state, devote time and effort in education and/or marginalization of the anti-vaxxers. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/49 "2014-03-26T19:48:57Z")
Would a national mandate to vaccinate be constitutional? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/50 "2014-03-26T20:00:04Z")
Are we to end poverty by engaging in mandatory sterilization? Because fucking liberty. Freedom to choose also includes the freedom to choose poorly. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/51 "2014-03-26T20:03:35Z")
Children are not doing the choosing. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/52 "2014-03-26T20:13:01Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Are we to end poverty by engaging in mandatory sterilization? > > Because fucking liberty. Freedom to choose also includes the freedom to choose poorly. It does not include the right to choose disease for other people. Measles is one of the most contagious diseases on the planet. It is highly dangerous in young babies. Much the same is true of many other vaccine-preventable diseases including rubella and pertussis. I don’t believe in mandates. I do believe in making exemptions hard to come by and making the consequences of refusal difficult. If you voluntarily refuse to engage in basic public health measures you are not necessarily entitled to be with the public. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/53 "2014-03-26T20:23:41Z")
A person not getting vaccinated does not in any way directly choose disease for other people. I fully support voluntary vaccinations and think anti-vax folks are dumb as shit. I still dont support forcing medical procedures on people who don’t want them. What other health related mandates are you willing to force people to undergo for their own good? If people are at risk of spreading communicable diseases, there are federal and state quarantine laws that can be used to stop the spread. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/54 "2014-03-27T13:50:35Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > A person not getting vaccinated does not in any way directly choose disease for other people. Nor has anyone here claimed such. Indirectly they certainly are.\* > [@](#): > > What other health related mandates are you willing to force people to undergo for their own good? I support seat belt and motorcycle helmet laws. Those also override personal rights based on compelling public health concerns. Why should parents be forced to put their young children in car seats and buckle them up? What a terrible infringement on parental liberties! > [@](#): > > If people are at risk of spreading communicable diseases, there are federal and state quarantine laws that can be used to stop the spread. I don’t think you really want to return to those wonderful days of yesteryear when health wardens went around posting quarantine signs on peoples’ doors or sequestering them involuntarily in quarantine units. Griping about mandatory immunizations would be multiplied a thousand-fold if people were legally compelled to undergo quarantine. \*there _are_ instances of misguided parents directly choosing disease for their children (i.e. “chickenpox parties” and seeking to have strangers mail them disease-contaminated items so their children can contract illnesses “naturally”). ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/55 "2014-03-27T14:31:07Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The 1958 thalidomide scandal comes to mind. Vaccines, medications, drugs are overwhelmingly safe and effective. Except when they aren’t. > > A monarchy could force every citizen to ingest anything it believes is in the best interest of the King/Queen. Who is mandating vaccines for pregnant women? ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/56 "2014-03-27T15:34:42Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Thalidomide did little damage in the USA because of government testing. Frances Oldham Kelsey, MD, held the line for the FDA, despite serious drug company pressure. She refused to approve the drug. Eventually, news from Europe indicated she was right… > > Of course, now we’re told to fear the government & “streamline” testing to help the drug companies push newer & more profitable drugs. The vaccines have been well tested. Besides, they aren’t big money makers like drugs for the obese & the impotent… And it wasn’t because of the birth defects issue. It was because long-term use of thalidomide causes neuropathy in a huge percentage of the people who take it, and it’s often irreversible. Early studies covered that up. I’ve dispensed thalidomide several times over the years, usually for people with multiple myeloma. Geraldine Ferraro took it for a while. I don’t think there should be any kind of national database for vaccines, that kind of thing, but I am fine with them, or at least immunity to the disease (mainly an issue with chicken pox) being required for school attendance and certain jobs. Immigrants need to be vaxed too. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/57 "2014-03-27T15:37:34Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I would not mandate _all_ vaccinations. Two that come to mind are the flu and cervical cancer vaccines. The former because its effectiveness is so limited - a single strain of a rapidly mutating virus, the latter because it is actually possible to be a part of modern society - especially during childhood - without becoming a transmission vector, unlike for diseases like measles. I don’t think Gardasil, the cancer vaccine, should be mandated by any population except one because it isn’t transmissible through casual contact. If I was in the age group that takes it, I would personally get it, and recommend that my children get it too if I had them, but I wouldn’t make them do it if they didn’t want to. That one population would be legal sex workers. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/58 "2014-03-28T06:33:12Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Are we to end poverty by engaging in mandatory sterilization? > > Because fucking liberty. Freedom to choose also includes the freedom to choose poorly. Not when it starts to infringe on the freedom of others. Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose. Granted, there would have to be some exemptions – some people have to opt out of vaccinations for health reasons. (Compromised immune systems, or whatever) BUT, if the anti-vaxxers had been around fifty years ago, we’d still see people dying of small pox. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/59 "2014-03-28T11:22:07Z")
Anti-vaccination efforts have always been around. The Internet just makes them louder and more able to network. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/60 "2014-03-28T12:14:34Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > So let’s just clarify three premises right off the bat: > > 1. Vaccines are overwhelmingly safe and effective. > 2. Antivaccine sentiment is leading to an increase in infectious diseases. > 3. Lowered vaccination rates lead to more disease vectors, which is a risk for others beyond those who choose not to vaccinate - in other words, in choosing not to vaccinate, you’re not just a danger to yourself and your own children, you are a danger to those around you. > I don’t think there’s any rational arguing with 1 or 2. The conclusion to be drawn from this is that it would be legitimate for the government to mandate vaccination against infectious diseases, and potentially to make it a crime to withhold vaccines from your children or go significantly off-schedule. My question is, is there any good reason not to? Measles was effectively eradicated in the USA for a few years back around the turn of the century; now it’s making a comeback. I think it would not only be sensible to mandate the vaccination of everyone, but that it would be irresponsible not to. Thoughts? I believe your argument falls apart on 2 levels as we approach 100% vac.: 1 - Vaccinations are not 100% safe, there are known side effects, some people may be in weakened condition or otherwise at risk. 2 - As we approach 100% vac rate the benefit to society for each person vaccinated goes down due to heard immunity. So there is very little risk to a non-vac person if everyone else is vaccinated. So it’s a balancing act, where is that number were the risk of infection comes back into play in society? And were do the known side effects of a vaccine outweigh the risk of a disease? It does seem to make sense that the percentage of those vaccinated should be in the 90’s% range, but if we are there already, we have enough people vaccinated to gain the herd immunity, why mandate it further with no proven benefit? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447.md?page=4)