# Is there any good reason not to mandate national vaccination? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447 "2014-03-24T15:54:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/121 "2014-03-30T18:15:56Z")
I just want to thank the posters in this tread, escpecially **DoctorWhyBother** and **WhyNot** , for their discussion of this topic. Anti-vaxxing was one of those topics that I felt I had to have an opinion about, having both kids and anti-vaxx parents of classmates of my kid, and I didn’t know what to think. Especially since anti-vaxxing seemed to be one of the dogma’s of the social group I consider myself part of. Like, if you’re into the whole green&granola ethic, that comes with an attitude to be wary of vaccinations, or something. Maybe I should leave the granola group and sign up for the Pro-Tech Granola Group. At least then I can be pro windmills and pro animal-friendly industrial farming and such. Anyway, this thread is like a one-stop-shop for all the info and considerations I was looking for. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/122 "2014-03-30T18:22:58Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > This doesn’t really have anything to do with the post of mine that you quoted, but I’m going to assume that since you quoted me, you want my thoughts on it. > > As I said back on page one, I don’t support truly mandatory vaccination as the OP proposed it. That is, mandatory vaccination with only documented medical exceptions with criminal penalties for not vaccinating your kids. I don’t support that. I don’t support that because I agree with you that that cure would be worse than the disease - at least the disease as it stands now. While I see a few hundred cases of disease and a few dozen deaths per year as tragic and terribly unfortunate and I grieve with the families of the lost, I personally do not think that the death toll is high enough to warrant more aggressive enforcement at this time. At this time I support continuing to use \*\*education \*\*(both on a personal level, like I’ve tried to do in this thread, and on a larger level, with more television interviews with vaccination experts, TED talks, newspaper articles that do not present a false sense of “balance”, etc.) and \*\*marketing \*\*to increase vaccination rates, not law enforcement. > > That may change in the future as more and more people refuse to vaccinate. (Or it may not; people are inherently selfish, and if kids start dropping like flies, I bet we’ll see a rise in voluntary vaccination, at least back to the levels of the 60s when every parent remembered how awful polio is.) Where’s my limit? I don’t know. I don’t know if I can put a hard and fast number on it. But if more kids start dropping dead of vaccine preventable illness than are killed in car accidents or choke to death on hot dogs every year, then I’m pretty sure we’d be in the territory where I’d have to cede that education and marketing aren’t enough, and some more draconian measures needed to be tried. Then the “cure” would not be worse than the disease, in my humble opinion. > > You (and others in this thread) don’t seem to realize that\* we already have a medical system which does not allow for parental freedom to the extent of endangering their child\*. If you take a child to the hospital, you will not be able to sign them out AMA. Many people don’t realize this. If their condition is such that a medical doctor thinks it’s too dangerous to discharge them, you may not take them home. You may be able to have them transferred to another hospital, but even that is iffy. Our current medical culture views parents as agents of the state in making medical decisions for their children, not the other way around. As long as you’re making reasonable decisions mostly in line with what the state (as expressed by a Medical Doctor) wants, then you’re free to consider yourself in charge of your child’s health care. But step out of line and you’ll find out very quickly that the state will supersede your imaginary “rights” and appoint a legal guardian for healthcare who will make those decisions for your child on your behalf. > > Parents may not refuse blood transfusions for their children. They may not refuse cancer treatments for their children. There are lots of interventions which a parent may not refuse for their child, even though they could refuse it for themselves. We’re actually \*more \*generous in our allowance of vaccine refusal than we are other areas of parental refusal for medical care for their children. 1 - I appreciate your input about parents right when it comes to critical medical care. 2 - There is some flexability in the question that vaccinations fall under this bypassing the parents rights expecially if a: if the risk is reasonably high enough to enact such a action , and B: if we are already over the known herd immunity threshold (as stated by Czarcasm by giving hard percentages) 3 I totally agree with your first 2 paragraphs (negating your first one liner) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/123 "2014-03-30T18:32:49Z")
An aside, perhaps for another GD: Since I chose to challenge this on a emotional level instead of a factual one, I have noticed a change in the tone of the debate. It does seem more logical and sensible, at least to me without such emotional involvement. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/124 "2014-03-30T18:40:54Z")
And when we leave emotion out of it, we get cold, hard, unassailable [antivaxer logic](http://i.imgur.com/chJ9KvZ.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/125 "2014-03-30T18:43:38Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > An aside, perhaps for another GD: > > Since I chose to challenge this on a emotional level instead of a factual one, I have noticed a change in the tone of the debate. It does seem more logical and sensible, at least to me without such emotional involvement. I think you noticed I started posting more in the throes of early morning insomnia. I starting trying to answer people’s questions, including yours, with calm respect, because I saw an opportunity to spread information. That’s a hijack from the OP, but one I wanted to pursue. My choice in teaching is to start where people are and take them by the metaphoric hand and lead them to what I’d like them to see. And I like you. You’re a wonderful odd duck, but I like you, and I’m totally there with you even in your wonderful oddness. You say Jesus, I say Spirit, but we’re kindred souls. I think mother’s chicken soup is full of healing Love, too, and that can’t be tested for. Vaccines, however, \*can \*be tested for, and have, and they work. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/126 "2014-03-30T19:18:27Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > And when we leave emotion out of it, we get cold, hard, unassailable [antivaxer logic](http://i.imgur.com/chJ9KvZ.jpg). The thing that’s missing in the analogy is that those refusing to use the bridge don’t necessarily endanger those who aren’t idiots. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/127 "2014-03-30T19:40:13Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > And when we leave emotion out of it, we get cold, hard, unassailable [antivaxer logic](http://i.imgur.com/chJ9KvZ.jpg). Basically what this link is saying is 'I do not trust you and due to my life’s experiences (and how I interpret them) and you can only trusted under certain known to be harmless OK circumstances. What you cite is clearly a emotional response due to past hurts and disappointments and disillusions. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/128 "2014-03-30T19:41:51Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > The thing that’s missing in the analogy is that those refusing to use the bridge don’t necessarily endanger those who aren’t idiots. Well if the bridge was make out of wood and they use wood to construct a floatation device, yes it may apply. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/129 "2014-03-30T19:48:18Z")
It is to weep. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/130 "2014-03-30T19:53:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It is to weep. Go to the top of the page. See the words printed right below **THE STRAIGHT DOPE**? > [@Super Chicken](#): > > You knew the job was dangerous when you took it, Fred. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/131 "2014-03-30T19:56:13Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I think you noticed I started posting more in the throes of early morning insomnia. I starting trying to answer people’s questions, including yours, with calm respect, because I saw an opportunity to spread information. That’s a hijack from the OP, but one I wanted to pursue. My choice in teaching is to start where people are and take them by the metaphoric hand and lead them to what I’d like them to see. And I like you. You’re a wonderful odd duck, but I like you, and I’m totally there with you even in your wonderful oddness. You say Jesus, I say Spirit, but we’re kindred souls. I think mother’s chicken soup is full of healing Love, too, and that can’t be tested for. Vaccines, however, \*can \*be tested for, and have, and they work. 🙂 Oh how I was haunted by my chicken soup post, thankfully someone appreciated it. It didn’t matter as I will not be deterred and I still stand behind it, but it did suck. Only if we were all odd ducks, or more to the point outspoken odd ducks, but anyway thank you. Call it Jesus, Spirit or Love, different words, same meaning. Yes I agree that vaccines are proven to be effective but with some causalities, though the question remains what is the most effective way of distribution given the human condition and the expected return of the vaccine? I’m not sure mandatory vaccination in a free society with access to the internet is the best method under all circumstances as I feel it may be counter productive. But admittedly and very strangely, I do feel like the anti-STD vaccine should be at the least available to teens/preteens upon request as a basic human right. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/132 "2014-03-30T20:09:01Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It is to weep. Stop your belly aching and whining, you should have know what you got involved in when you signed up. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/133 "2014-03-30T20:49:04Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Basically what this link is saying is 'I do not trust you and due to my life’s experiences (and how I interpret them) and you can only trusted under certain known to be harmless OK circumstances. …Okay, I’m not even going to ask about the logical pathways that led to this conclusion. There is only madness down that road. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/134 "2014-03-30T21:10:01Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > …Okay, I’m not even going to ask about the logical pathways that led to this conclusion. There is only madness down that road. What road do you think you already are on now? You already entered the debate of emotions trumping logic, you have chosen such road that is emotionally created and God willing hopefully will not find madness down your path. Means about as much as you posted. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/135 "2014-03-30T21:11:09Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Stop your belly aching and whining, you should have know what you got involved in when you signed up. I’m not sure what you mean, but I do think people who discuss this issue with you are wasting their time. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/136 "2014-03-30T21:14:33Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > What road do you think you already are on now? You already entered the debate of emotions trumping logic, you have chosen such road that is emotionally created and God willing hopefully will not find madness down your path. > > Means about as much as you posted. Correction. I let my logic lead my emotions. You seem to lack both. That you can go from a simple analogy of popular anti-vaccine positions to “I do not trust you and due to my life’s experiences (and how I interpret them) and you can only trusted under certain known to be harmless OK circumstances”, which isn’t even a coherent thought or correct sentence… Yikes. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/137 "2014-03-31T00:46:24Z")
You speak of love, **Kanicbird** – it seems to me, if a parent loves their child, they wouldn’t want to expose them to deadly disease, and would do whatever it takes to protect them. Which means – hello! – getting them vaccinated. To do otherwise is downright neglectful. Vaccination allowed us to wipe out smallpox, one of the deadliest diseases in history. My father’s just went through his second bout of shingles. (I didn’t even know you could get it twice!) Modern medicine in a marvelous thing – do you think these doctors aren’t motivated by caring about others? Many of them are parents as well. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/138 "2014-04-01T01:06:16Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Before I accept ‘proof’ from someone should I determine if they are capable of obtaining such proof objectively? If I find that they are not capable of that then what good is the proof they submit? It would be just a illogical waste of my time and my energy. Can I quote you on this, in some future thread? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![desiderata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b19c9b/32.png) [@desiderata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/desiderata)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/139 "2014-04-01T02:55:51Z")
There is some evidence that the chicken pox vaccine being so widely used has caused a new problem - that older people are now more likely to get shingles (see: [Archived Article Notice](http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/11/02/chicken-pox-vaccine-creates-shingles-epidemic.aspx)). The same pharma group makes both vaccines now… but, I know of people who have had horrible reactions to both. I also know that I am one of the few that cannot take certain vaccinations due to hereditary problems that can cause guillian-barre syndrome (which did happen to my aunt). So, while I think the majority of vaccines have been generally safe for most people, I would not want to be fighting with some government agency to not take something that could be very dangerous to me or my children. And, I am not sure we always know the effect of mass vaccinations until we do it. I think there are certain boundaries and our skin/bodies are one that should not be crossed. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/140 "2014-04-01T23:45:14Z")
Joseph Mercola is a known quack. I wouldn’t trust him if he told me that the sky was blue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447.md?page=8)