# Is there any good reason not to mandate national vaccination? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447 "2014-03-24T15:54:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/161 "2014-04-02T22:35:10Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Your “free society” however ends when it starts to have an impact on my freedom. Your freedom to remain unvaccinated can cause harm to others. “Herd immunity” isn’t a cure-all. > > For those who have health issues that prevent them from being vaccinated, your so-called “freedom” can have dire consequences. You ARE infringing on their rights. And it comes back to mathematics at this point, which I believe was my first post in this thread. When does the point of each additional immunity become statistically irrelevant in it’s benefit to society? When does the risk of harm for a person become greater then the risk of the disease? What happens when we exceed that point statistically? Going further what is the cost to our freedom in forcing something that has no benefit over a certain level of the population? Would it not be better to let a few people slip through the mandatory vaccination system then risk either a police state enforcement or the collapse of support for the mandatory vaccination system due to public outcry? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/162 "2014-04-02T22:39:17Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Going further what is the cost to our freedom Nada. Zip. Bupkiss. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/163 "2014-04-02T22:47:22Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Nada. Zip. Bupkiss. How so? By what method do you get compliance with the members of society who are strongly opposed to being vaccinated? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/164 "2014-04-02T23:38:40Z")
With smallpox for some of the last few holdouts some countries actually sent in the army and vaccinated people at gunpoint. Well, it worked - no more smallpox for anyone anywhere any more. Hell, they used to vaccinate kids for it that, these days, would get exemptions for medical reasons. I was one of them - when I got my smallpox vaccination I also had active eczema which put me at high risk of a rather grisly death. Fortunately, that didn’t happen but such things were seen as the cost of protecting the majority of the population. Of course, smallpox is lots worse than chickenpox. Here’s the thing - if we take everyone currently alive now and vaccinated them (barring those who TRULY have a medical reason for not doing so) _the disease would be gone_. Then NO ONE would have to ever be vaccinated against it ever again, there would be no more vaccine side effects, no more chicken pox AND no more shingles for ever and ever and ever. Yes, I DO think that is worth taking a few risks. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/165 "2014-04-03T00:06:00Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > … > > Here’s the thing - if we take everyone currently alive now and vaccinated them (barring those who TRULY have a medical reason for not doing so) _the disease would be gone_. Then NO ONE would have to ever be vaccinated against it ever again, there would be no more vaccine side effects, no more chicken pox AND no more shingles for ever and ever and ever… You make a very compelling point if the vaccine can do this - would it work for chickenpox, how about other diseases? If we have such enforcement of being vaccinated what diseases can be eliminated? What ones will simply mutate and we are yet unable to eliminate? What I stated before involved the benefits of heard immunity and diminishing returns after a certain point, but at least for some vaccines there may be something further then heard immunity, the irradication of the disease forever. However to note this is not yet the case for smallpox as the US and Russia still maintain the active virus in some form of containment, and with that it is still a risk. So smallpox is not eliminated - yet… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/166 "2014-04-03T00:14:30Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > And it comes back to mathematics at this point, which I believe was my first post in this thread. When does the point of each additional immunity become statistically irrelevant in it’s benefit to society? I expect that there is a point of diminishing returns after you reach herd immunity (unless you can wipe out the disease entirely). The problem is that you have to maintain that immunity after you reach it. > [@kanicbird](#): > > You make a very compelling point if the vaccine can do this - would it work for chickenpox, how about other diseases? If we have such enforcement of being vaccinated what diseases can be eliminated? What ones will simply mutate and we are yet unable to eliminate? We know vaccinates can do this. Smallpox has been wiped out and polio is almost gone. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/167 "2014-04-03T00:23:15Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > You make a very compelling point if the vaccine can do this - would it work for chickenpox, how about other diseases? If we have such enforcement of being vaccinated what diseases can be eliminated? What ones will simply mutate and we are yet unable to eliminate? My understanding is that chickenpox is a human disease. There aren’t any animal vectors or reservoirs for it. If we inoculate the entire human race, the virus won’t have enough time to mutate and it will be gone forever. Any diseases that we can contract from animals, especially animals that we have a lot of contact with such as dogs, cats or other common housepets, won’t be candidates for elimination. Any diseases that have a number of strains, any one of which could mutate into a more infectious form will be difficult to eliminate. And of course, all the diseases that we have not yet run into or that have not jumped from an animal to humans yet, will be difficult to vaccinate against. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/168 "2014-04-03T00:25:37Z")
Do you even know what “herd immunity” means? > [@kanicbird](#): > > However to note this is not yet the case for smallpox as the US and Russia still maintain the active virus in some form of containment, and with that it is still a risk. So smallpox is not eliminated - yet… You have proof that people are still getting smallpox? :dubious: Let’s see a cite for that. (I believe there are still specimens of the _vaccine_ just in case, which is wise) If you choose not to be vaccinated, then the alternative is quarantine. (Ala Typhoid Mary). We have laws limiting freedom all the time. Traffic laws. Laws against pollution. Laws against selling certain substances as medicine (poisons, etc). Some people think that illness is caused by demonic possession and that the demon should be beaten out with sticks. Some people believe that modern medicine is an afront to god, and thus only prayer is allowed. You do NOT have the freedom to allow a child to suffer for your beliefs. They are YOUR beliefs – not your child’s. It is a sin, in my view, to allow a child to suffer because of some notion of freedom. No, it’s not better. Not at all. When YOUR actions start causing the deaths of other people, then they become illegal. Drunk driving, for example. Throwing rocks at an underpass. That sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/169 "2014-04-03T00:33:20Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > You have proof that people are still getting smallpox? :dubious: Let’s see a cite for that. Yes, here is one ‘post eradication’: > [@](#): > > The last cases of smallpox in the world occurred in an outbreak of two cases (one of which was fatal) in Birmingham, UK in 1978. A medical photographer, Janet Parker, contracted the disease at the University of Birmingham Medical School and died on September 11, 1978,[77] after which the scientist responsible for smallpox research at the university committed suicide from [Smallpox - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox#Post-eradication) Yes it is 1978 BUT this was after the disease was ‘wiped out’ It still can infect if it gets out of containment. Since then we have put it into stronger containment, but it’s still there and only contained by our active efforts to do so. We can not say we have actually wiped out a disease if we still have the virus. Now it is a great thing that no one has suffered it since then, but till the stocks of this is gone we have not wiped it out. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/170 "2014-04-03T00:35:35Z")
**kanicbird** , you can’t make up your own definition of the word to win an argument. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/171 "2014-04-03T00:39:07Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > You have proof that people are still getting smallpox? :dubious: Let’s see a cite for that. Actually, he’s mostly right on this point, **Guin**. No one (as far as we know) has contracted smallpox since 1979, but [both the US and Russia possess research samples of live smallpox virus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox_virus_retention_controversy). The risk of its escape into the wild is minuscule at best…but it’s still a risk. However, **kanic** , the WHO did not declare smallpox to be eradicated in the general population until 1979. There have been no reported human cases since that time. ETA: Also, its entirely possible to wipe out a disease without destroying all the virus. . ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/172 "2014-04-03T00:40:01Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes, here is one ‘post eradication’: > from [Smallpox - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox#Post-eradication) > > Yes it is 1978 BUT this was after the disease was ‘wiped out’ It still can infect if it gets out of containment. Since then we have put it into stronger containment, but it’s still there and only contained by our active efforts to do so. We can not say we have actually wiped out a disease if we still have the virus. > > Now it is a great thing that no one has suffered it since then, but till the stocks of this is gone we have not wiped it out. It’s not like we’re trying really really hard to contain it by posting strong burly men holding it back. It’s frozen. In a safe. Protected by security and no one goes in to look at it. (There have been proposals to destroy even those remaining samples) If no one takes it out, it will never ever come back. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/173 "2014-04-03T00:41:46Z")
Anyway the existence of samples in storage has no bearing on the effectiveness of vaccines. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/174 "2014-04-03T01:08:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Anyway the existence of samples in storage has no bearing on the effectiveness of vaccines. It does however call into question if humans can effectively use vaccines to eradicate a disease as opposed to clear a population temperamentally, only to be possibly reintroduced after the population has had no apparent need for the vaccine and it has been discontinued\*. In this case perhaps some researcher letting it out in the wild accidentally. - A point made that once world wide vaccinations were done and the disease was eliminated no one needs to get vaccinated after. My counter point, due to the storage of smallpox as our only example ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/175 "2014-04-03T01:12:38Z")
It actually doesn’t do that, and it sounds like you’re suggesting maybe a disease that has been wiped out could come back through means unknown. So I think you’re just trying to find a way to avoid acknowledging that vaccines can wipe out diseases. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/176 "2014-04-03T01:20:04Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It actually doesn’t do that, and it sounds like you’re suggesting maybe a disease that has been wiped out could come back through means unknown. So I think you’re just trying to find a way to avoid acknowledging that vaccines can wipe out diseases. I am not suggesting that vaccines can not wipe out disease, but humans with vaccines have yet to prove it, and by not destroying existing smallpox viruses, it still remains unproven. It may be the closest example to wiping out a disease world wide, but until we make that leap and destroy the known samples (or they deteriorate to a non-infectious state), we have yet to have proven to do so. In this it is the human tendency that I hold in question, not the effectiveness of the vaccine. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/177 "2014-04-03T01:24:41Z")
Who cares about the human tendency? We’re talking about whether vaccines can eliminate diseases, and the answer is yes. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/178 "2014-04-03T01:56:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Who cares about the human tendency? We’re talking about whether vaccines can eliminate diseases, and the answer is yes. Can I bring this to a bigger scale. Assuming it requires human intelligence to develop a vaccine, but that human intelligence finds it also necessary to store the virus in a means that has a non-zero risk of reinfecting the population, can we truly say that humans are capable of irradiating a disease? If there still remains a known real mathematical probability of contracting the disease caused by human decision to store the infectious agent can we say we eliminated the disease from humanity? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/179 "2014-04-03T02:02:12Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Can I bring this to a bigger scale. Assuming it requires human intelligence to develop a vaccine, but that human intelligence finds it also necessary to store the virus in a means that has a non-zero risk of reinfecting the population, can we truly say that humans are capable of irradiating a disease? Assuming we were talking in absolutes, would your hypothetical even begin to matter? > [@](#): > > If there still remains a known real mathematical probability of contracting the disease caused by human decision to store the infectious agent can we say we eliminated the disease from humanity? Why does this matter? Why should anyone care? We’re aiming for “this disease is essentially extinct within the human population”. The fact that smallpox may exist in weapons labs somewhere does _nothing to diminish that accomplishment_. Please, can we at least pretend to give a shit about practicality? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447/180 "2014-04-03T02:16:17Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Assuming we were talking in absolutes, would your hypothetical even begin to matter? > > Why does this matter? Why should anyone care? We’re aiming for “this disease is essentially extinct within the human population”. The fact that smallpox may exist in weapons labs somewhere does _nothing to diminish that accomplishment_. Please, can we at least pretend to give a shit about practicality? I never mentioned weapons, just research, which was the way the last known smallpox infection happened and I do feel the likely vector over ‘weapons’. I do doubt that such virus would be used for bio-warfare as it is really a world wide doomsday device. So it’s a question of faith in humanity given the reality evident. Humans can develop a vaccine to eliminate a disease from the population but as part of that it had also proven itself unwilling to destroy the live virus, and instead trusts in it’s ability to contain it. It is the last part that calls into question if humans are capable of eliminating a disease.\* - I’m not saying it can’t just it is unproven [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-good-reason-not-to-mandate-national-vaccination/684447.md?page=10)