# Is there any ironclad way for the lead character in "Awake" to determine which is the dream? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036 "2012-03-07T15:20:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036/41 "2012-03-08T09:52:10Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So: other than suicide or intentional brain damage, is there any way to “reality test” that’s foolproof? Pound a hammer on your thumb. If it hurts, you’re awake. Nobody dreams pain. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036/42 "2012-03-08T10:51:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Pound a hammer on your thumb. If it hurts, you’re awake. Nobody dreams pain. Nobody has perfectly-detailed dreams of full days that remain completely consistent from day-to-day, either. We make conceits for the premise. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036/43 "2012-03-08T11:40:04Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Nobody has perfectly-detailed dreams of full days that remain completely consistent from day-to-day, either. We make conceits for the premise. Exactly. Thus the pain thing has to be thrown out IMO. Do people hallucinate pain, I wonder? We could consider this partly like a hallucination. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036/44 "2012-03-08T13:38:08Z")
I’ve once had a series of dreams one night where I would awake in my bed, everything was normal and in incredible non-dreamlike detail, but I was still dreaming, just dreaming that I awoke from a dream. So awaking does not equal end to dreaming as a reality check. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036/45 "2012-03-08T13:42:19Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I’ve once had a series of dreams one night where I would awake in my bed, everything was normal and in incredible non-dreamlike detail, but I was still dreaming, just dreaming that I awoke from a dream. So awaking does not equal end to dreaming as a reality check. Whoa, that is freaky. Does that ever make you question whether you’re really awake? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036/46 "2012-03-08T13:55:36Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Exactly. Thus the pain thing has to be thrown out IMO. Do people hallucinate pain, I wonder? Isn’t that sort of the whole point of phantom limb pain? You keep getting the sensation despite no longer having arm or the leg, let alone the nerves… ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036/47 "2012-03-08T14:12:11Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Whoa, that is freaky. Does that ever make you question whether you’re really awake? Perhaps twice or so over the years when I woke up. In that dream once I got out of bed and started into the rest of the house it was clear that the dream continued as things started to get more dreamlike then (different rooms then my house has). So it was pretty clear that I was still dreaming shortly after dreaming I awoke. Thinking back to childhood along these lines I once had a dream that I got up to go to the bathroom. I remember getting out of the nice warm bed and walking on the cold floor which I hated doing. Going into the bathroom and started to pee, then woke up in my bed as I wet myself and was still in bed. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036/48 "2012-03-08T14:41:24Z")
I have dreams like that occasionally. A few months ago I dreamed waking up, getting ready for work and getting on the Tube – I was extremely cross when I woke up and realised I was still in bed and had to “redo” the previous 20 minutes all over again. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036/49 "2012-03-08T14:47:24Z")
I find this premise a little too hard to believe. No one ever calls him when he is asleep? He never has to go pee during the night? He never wakes up to fix the covers that have slipped off? What happens if he takes a nap in the middle of the afternoon? What happens if he forces himself to stay awake in one reality? I am guessing the dream reality is the one where he suddenly realizes he forgot to study for the big test and is wearing no pants. ---
**Author:** ![Sister\_Vigilante](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Sister\_Vigilante](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sister_Vigilante)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036/50 "2012-03-08T15:51:32Z")
I have dreamed pain before. I didn’t even know that was an argument. So I still posit that you could hurt yourself deliberately in one reality. Something long lasting. If, in the other, you are experiencing inexplicable pain, that’s the fake world. When I have been dreaming, I would for example experience a weird pain in my left shoulder that was there for no reason. I would move my arm around to relieve the pain but it wouldn’t go away. When I wake up, the pain is still there, but I can see that it’s because I was sleeping awkwardly on that arm, which wasn’t the case in the dream. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036/51 "2012-03-08T16:29:14Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > That seems to violate the rules of Awake as we see them, which is that in both realities he is conscious and able to remember and see things he remembers in the other reality, and is capable of asking questions such as “am I dreaming”, etc. Well yes, but we see things as he sees them, so if he doesn’t remember that he wanted to remember, there would, from the point of view of the current state, never have been a book of limericks in the other state, and neither an intention to memorize any of them. Of course, you could again then seek out a book of limericks, but then, in the other state, you’d have the same thing again. You might even then remember to have recalled the limerick correctly – in both states. > [@Lumpy](#): > > Am I correct that his lives alternate in order? If a particular day is for example March 8, 2012, then presumably he first experiences one version of March 8, real or dreamed and then another version of March 8 real or dreamed. I think they said the Wife alive/Son dead/new Partner version is the one that comes first for each day? Again, this seems vulnerable to the possibility that he might not recall that he intended to recall something. So if he reads some headline in one state, memorizes it, both the act of reading and the memorization would be lost to him in the other state, and the headline would appear new – even though it’s not. Yes, this requires a somewhat conspirative manipulation by his subconscious, but I don’t think it’d be out of the question (at least within the fictional universe of the show). That said, I’m still not sure I buy the ‘one world is a dream’ explanation. Some things like the 616-synchronicity and the whole drunk driving thing seem to hint at something more (or the world in which he’d been drinking is the fictional one, and this was only a result of his guilt). ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036/52 "2012-03-08T18:15:06Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Well yes, but we see things as he sees them, so if he doesn’t remember that he wanted to remember, there would, from the point of view of the current state, never have been a book of limericks in the other state, and neither an intention to memorize any of them. Of course, you could again then seek out a book of limericks, but then, in the other state, you’d have the same thing again. You might even then remember to have recalled the limerick correctly – in both states. Sure, but pretty much any test we can imagine can be defeated by “he forgets to run the test”. But given the rules of his existence as they’ve been apparently presented to us, that doesn’t seem to be what’s going on. (Certainly the show has been very vague about issues like what happens when he gets woken up in the middle of the night or takes a nap in the middle of the day, whether the outside events in both worlds proceed in lockstep, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036/53 "2012-03-09T13:37:14Z")
This show’s writer is obviously borrowing from _Life on Mars_ starring John Simm and the sequel _Ashes to Ashes_ starring Keeley Hawes. They both were on BBC America a couple years ago. > [@](#): > > Life on Mars tells the fictional story of Sam Tyler (John Simm), a policeman in service with the Greater Manchester Police. After being hit by a car in 2006, Tyler awakes in 1973 and finds himself working for the predecessor of the GMP, the Manchester and Salford Police at the same station and location as in 2006. Early on in the series, it becomes apparent to Tyler that he awakes as a Detective Inspector, one rank lower than his 2006 rank of Detective Chief Inspector. As part of the Criminal Investigation Department, Tyler finds himself working under the command of Gene Hunt (Philip Glenister). > > Throughout the two series, the central plot centres on the ambiguity concerning Tyler’s predicament of it being unclear to both the audience and the character whether he has died, gone mad, is in a coma or has actually travelled back in time. > **[Life on Mars (disambiguation)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_on_Mars_%28TV_series%29)** > > Life on Mars refers to the scientific investigation on the possibility of microbial life (past or present) on the planet Mars. > Life on Mars may also refer to: ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036/54 "2012-03-09T13:45:34Z")
American tv often borrows from the BBC. There’s nothing wrong with that. But, creative credit needs to be given. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036/55 "2012-03-09T13:58:50Z")
Yes, it’s just come back to me that as a kid I once had a dream that some kind of demon thing was repeatedly giving me the evil eye, and each time it did I’d be wracked with agony throughout my body. The agony was real–I really felt it. It was actually indigestion or some kind of reflux problem. (It eventually woke me up). But it still counts as pain felt in a dream as an element of the dream. Pretty intense pain at that. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036/56 "2012-03-09T14:11:37Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > They’re both a dream - _he’s_ dead. Or in a coma… I’m wondering if he could drink heavily one night. If he wakes up with a hangover, whatever reality he ‘drank’ in is the real one. If he wakes up fine and fresh, then he’s currently in the correct reality. That said, I don’t think it’s fool proof. Also, as stated in the first episode, the main character has no intention of figuring out which is real and which is fake. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036/57 "2012-03-09T16:20:46Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > This solution reminds me of some of the most frustrating dreams I have, where in I am trying to solve a riddle, and then wake up and realize that the riddle probably actually has no real answer. You have fucked up dream. I usually dream about losing my ability to fly just as the vampires, demons or zombies are about to catch up to me or something about sex. > [@Frylock](#): > > I learned not to trust what show producers say about their shows while I was a fan of Lost. > > Some reviews I’ve read say that there are hints in the series of some kind of “dark conspiracy” that may have some explanatory role in what’s happening to the protagonist. > > I’ll wait til the series is over to decide whether it’s fantasy, science fiction or purely realistic. Also, I’ll wait til then to decide whether it’s worth watching. 😉 > > I got _burned_ by Lost. > > As for knowing whether you’re in a dream or not, the thing about dreams is, unless you go into a lucid state, you can be completely incoherent in rational terms yet _believe_ you’re completely coherent. So within a dream I do not know that it’s possible to know _anything_. Yeah Lost was BULLSHIT. I think the producers got cocky and engaged the Lost fan community and when the fan based community guessed everything they didn’t want to admit it so they came up with soemthign retarded that noone would have guessed because it was so retarded. Something like purgatory would have made more sense. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036/58 "2012-03-09T17:39:44Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > I’m wondering if he could drink heavily one night. If he wakes up with a hangover, whatever reality he ‘drank’ in is the real one. If he wakes up fine and fresh, then he’s currently in the correct reality. I’m not sure. Couldn’t he drink in reality, and then fall asleep to have a cool dream, and then wake up in reality with a hangover? And couldn’t he drink in the dream, wake up to a day of reality, and upon falling back asleep dream of being hung over? ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036/59 "2012-03-10T16:50:30Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Ok, so whichever version comes first, he sees the daily headlines, checks the stock market, sees who won the game, etc. Then in the other life he sees if the same major world events repeat. If in the “bottom of the inning” life he knows what’s going to happen, then either it’s a dream or else he’s psychic. The alternative is that virtually all events with a random outcome began diverging from the time of the accident. > ? This wouldn’t work…the two realities aren’t only different from after the accident, they are actually different from _before_ the accident. In the latest episode, last Thursday: (no big spoilers here if you haven’t seen it and want to, it’s all in the first ~5 minutes) A doctor in one reality is killed. In the other reality, that person _isn’t a doctor._ They’re a homeless drug-addicted that’s murdered. And to add more confusion to the fire (I will spoiler this) [spoiler] In the “Red/Wife Alive” reality, we see scenes without the main character, with the wife interacting with a next door neighbor and friend of their son. She asks why his son got a camshaft in the mail, so the friend shows her an old motorcycle he and the son were fixing up, and tells her that whenever he and the son said they were “going to the beach,” they were really fixing up the bike. Cut to “Green/Son” reality, and the son and his friend so they are headed to the beach, and we then see a scene of them fixing the bike together. Back in “Wife” reality, the wife tells Britten (the main character,) about how their son and his friend were fixing up the bike, and the secret code of “going to the beach.” So in “Son” reality, the next time his son says he is going to the beach, the father tells him to wear a helmet…the son is stupefied, but then asks if he wants to see the bike. So…how would he know about the bike in the Son reality, if the existence of the bike and the “code word” for working on it only came to him from the “Wife” reality? That _seems_ to imply that the Wife reality is the one more likely to be real.[/spoiler] And re: pain, I’ve had many dreams where I’ve felt pain…sometimes, I’ve woken up to discover I was sleeping on my arm wrong and it was hurting, but other times the pain had no “real world” reason, yet I still felt it in the dream. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036/60 "2012-03-10T17:01:38Z")
> [@bouv](#): > > This wouldn’t work…the two realities aren’t only different from after the accident, they are actually different from _before_ the accident. > > In the latest episode, last Thursday: (no big spoilers here if you haven’t seen it and want to, it’s all in the first ~5 minutes) > > A doctor in one reality is killed. In the other reality, that person _isn’t a doctor._ They’re a homeless drug-addicted that’s murdered. If the story is consistent, that seems to be a clincher. Whichever he experienced first is the real world. The thing about the change being before the accident isn’t relevant–it just means that his dream world includes elements which _ostensibly_ (i.e., in the story according to the dream) occured before the accident. There’s no logical problem with that. (I’ve had dreams before in which I was never married. Dreaming that history is different than what it really is presents no logical or metaphysical conundrum–the dream isn’t real of course!) What will ruin the whole premise is if in later episodes the same method determines the _other_ world to be real. We will then know that the writers are just fucking with us. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-ironclad-way-for-the-lead-character-in-awake-to-determine-which-is-the-dream/615036.md?page=4)