# Is there any land you can still buy (or otherwise peaceably acquire) to form your own country? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 21, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-land-you-can-still-buy-or-otherwise-peaceably-acquire-to-form-your-own-country/701970 "2014-10-21T01:29:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-land-you-can-still-buy-or-otherwise-peaceably-acquire-to-form-your-own-country/701970/41 "2014-10-27T21:18:02Z")
Another reason to colonize outer space. Most territory on Earth is taken or protected, nobody really wants to live in a domed city in Antarctica, and while floating man-made islands in the ocean are sorta cool, you can’t beat space in terms of open territory you can do whatever you want with, if you’re rich enough. ---
**Author:** ![tiescore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@tiescore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiescore)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-land-you-can-still-buy-or-otherwise-peaceably-acquire-to-form-your-own-country/701970/42 "2014-10-27T22:19:25Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > A few engineers probably get to be millionaires, but I doubt whether many scientists or security people do. I should have thought millionaires are mostly businessmen and financiers, stockbrokers, etc., with a sprinkling of high-powered lawyers, star entertainers, and ex-farmers who have sold up. Not really an array of all the talents. Well considering there are over 7 million millionaire households in the US alone, I think you might want to rethink that assumption. According to the book, The Millionaire Next Door (Stanley/Darko) the “typical” millionaire household is a married couple in their early fifties, who spends wisely and most likely owns a typical “boring” small business like a dry cleaners or bakery. But millionaires are found in all sorts of professions. The Profession with the highest percent of high net worth individuals, auctioneers… likely because they see the results of being frivolous with wealth all the time while running bankruptcy auctions, so they take extra care to ensure they don’t have the same happen to them. Becoming a millionaire is more about how you spend and save & invest then your income - although more income certainly helps alot. ( for the inverse: see all the sports stars who make tens of millions but spend or unwisely invest it and lose it). ---
**Author:** ![SandyHook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dec6dc/32.png) [@SandyHook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandyHook)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-land-you-can-still-buy-or-otherwise-peaceably-acquire-to-form-your-own-country/701970/43 "2014-10-27T22:30:21Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Niue is a self governing state with recognised independence and it only has 1600 people living there and a GDP of only 10 million a year. > > If a group of billionaires was to offer to relocate all the people, buy them all houses and set them up for life somewhere, then (assuming the offer was accepted) they would then peacefully control a recognised independant state. > > Lot easier than starting your own from scratch. Nothing to do with the question, and I apologize for the interruption, but Niue has the highest per capita death rate from motor vehicle accidents in the world, for the year 2013 anyway. 68 per 100,000, or 1 fatality last year. But still, they led the league last year. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-land-you-can-still-buy-or-otherwise-peaceably-acquire-to-form-your-own-country/701970/44 "2014-10-27T23:12:54Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Another reason to colonize outer space. Most territory on Earth is taken or protected, nobody really wants to live in a domed city in Antarctica […] Well naturally, Antarctica’s extreme isolation and hostile physical environment would make trying to live there simply intolerab… …hey, wait a minute. Seriously, I have never understood why so many people who find remote or harsh parts of this planet unacceptable for residential purposes seem to think that places outside it would be realistically preferable. Any place on Earth with access to breathable atmosphere would be a veritable paradise compared to any extraterrestrial habitation human beings may manage to establish at least for the next several hundred years. ---
**Author:** ![MacLir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9e8a1a/32.png) [@MacLir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacLir)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-land-you-can-still-buy-or-otherwise-peaceably-acquire-to-form-your-own-country/701970/45 "2014-10-28T13:57:09Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I take it you meant “99 **eccentric** millionaires”, but, anyway, for this sort of project, I think you would need billionaires, at least. I magine if they are eccentric they are also eclectic. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-land-you-can-still-buy-or-otherwise-peaceably-acquire-to-form-your-own-country/701970/46 "2014-10-28T14:36:32Z")
> [@tiescore](#): > > Well considering there are over 7 million millionaire households in the US alone, I think you might want to rethink that assumption. According to the book, The Millionaire Next Door (Stanley/Darko) the “typical” millionaire household is a married couple in their early fifties, who spends wisely and most likely owns a typical “boring” small business like a dry cleaners or bakery. But millionaires are found in all sorts of professions. The Profession with the highest percent of high net worth individuals, auctioneers… likely because they see the results of being frivolous with wealth all the time while running bankruptcy auctions, so they take extra care to ensure they don’t have the same happen to them. Becoming a millionaire is more about how you spend and save & invest then your income - although more income certainly helps alot. ( for the inverse: see all the sports stars who make tens of millions but spend or unwisely invest it and lose it). Yeah , it’s the American dream. Anyone can be a millionaire if they just buckle down and work hard, and take care of the pennies, and … Sorry, my eyes just rolled out of my head. Anyway, s I implied way back in post #2, simple millionaires, certainly people whose assets are only a bit over one one million, are not going to cut it for setting up a country. It is true, that, thanks to inflation, mere millionaires (in America), although they certainly aren’t poor, are not particularly rich either, and may not have much cash to spare on adventures like setting up new countries (very often, most of their million is going to be tied up in their house). If you do not actually need billionaires, as I said before (and, actually, I still think you probably do), you certainly need **multi** -millionaires, with that **multi** factor quite large. There are not 7 million of them, and the ones that there are are not, as I said, drawn from a very wide range of professions. Yes, a nation of auctioneers, that should work. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-land-you-can-still-buy-or-otherwise-peaceably-acquire-to-form-your-own-country/701970/47 "2014-10-28T15:49:54Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well naturally, Antarctica’s extreme isolation and hostile physical environment would make trying to live there simply intolerab… > > …hey, wait a minute. > > Seriously, I have never understood why so many people who find remote or harsh parts of this planet unacceptable for residential purposes seem to think that places outside it would be realistically preferable. > > Any place on Earth with access to breathable atmosphere would be a veritable paradise compared to any extraterrestrial habitation human beings may manage to establish at least for the next several hundred years. True dat. As much as I like watching those NASA videos from the International Space Station, they still give me the claustrophobia heebie-jeebies. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-land-you-can-still-buy-or-otherwise-peaceably-acquire-to-form-your-own-country/701970/48 "2014-10-28T17:07:26Z")
So let’s expand this. Let’s buy a section of Chad for $1,000,000. What would it cost to be recognized by a) North African countries b) A major world power. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-land-you-can-still-buy-or-otherwise-peaceably-acquire-to-form-your-own-country/701970/49 "2014-10-28T17:08:21Z")
I’m pretty confident you aren’t going to get a factual answer. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e79b87/32.png) [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Joker_and_the_Thief)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-land-you-can-still-buy-or-otherwise-peaceably-acquire-to-form-your-own-country/701970/50 "2014-10-28T17:31:00Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So let’s expand this. Let’s buy a section of Chad for $1,000,000. What would it cost to be recognized by > a) North African countries > b) A major world power. Taiwan buys recognition from Nauru for just [864000](http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/if-youre-willing-to-pay-nauru-can-be-amazingly-accommodating/story-fn59niix-1225904777974?nk=bfbe4eff75321d2bc46ac7dc52a37b10) a year. A North African nation would probably cost more, though. Still, I think your best bet is simply buying all the land on an island with existing recognition and bribing everyone to leave. Giving everyone on Nauru a 20K a year job in the first world for 10 years would be 2 billion–a lot, but possibly within the range of our billionaires. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-land-you-can-still-buy-or-otherwise-peaceably-acquire-to-form-your-own-country/701970/51 "2014-10-28T18:01:17Z")
You aren’t going to bribe more than one or two micronations into recognizing your country. There are no countries that matter that would recognize your artificial country. The only way to own your own country is to conquer an existing country, by whatever nefarious means, and control it long enough that everyone gives up pretending that you don’t control the country. But what exactly is the point of having your own country? So you can rule as an iron-fisted dictator? Thing is, that’s a full time job, and unless you’ve got a flair for that sort of thing you’re likely to end up with your head on a pole. You want to avoid taxes? You can already move to a micronation tax haven like the Cayman Islands. The problem is that if you engage in business in the US or France or Germany or wherever, you still have to pay taxes there. And you’re stuck in your shitty country. I mean, it’s all well and good to live in a dome in Antarctica, but pretty soon you get tired of that. People literally go crazy being cooped up inside for months and months, murder-suicides are a common feature of frontier tales. And living on a space station is even worse. For people who think they’d like to escape to the freedom of living in space, try spending a year or two in maximum security prison first, and see how that grabs you. If it turns out you enjoy prison, then life in space may be perfect for you. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-land-you-can-still-buy-or-otherwise-peaceably-acquire-to-form-your-own-country/701970/52 "2014-10-28T21:16:59Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > But what exactly is the point of having your own country? A: You want to establish a Libertarian state or enclave. This is not a political jab: 100 years ago some millionaires might have dreamed of setting up a collectivist one. Or to put in the terms of one advocate: [INDENT]“The ultimate goal,” Friedman says, “is to open a frontier for experimenting with new ideas for government.” This translates into the founding of ideologically oriented micro-states on the high seas, a kind of floating petri dish for implementing policies that libertarians, stymied by indifference at the voting booths, have been unable to advance: no welfare, looser building codes, no minimum wage, and few restrictions on weapons. [/INDENT] [http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/The-312/August-2011/Milton-Friedmans-Grandson-to-Built-Floating-Libertarian-Nation/](http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/The-312/August-2011/Milton-Friedmans-Grandson-to-Built-Floating-Libertarian-Nation/) > **[Libertarian Billionaire Wants Island Nation for Libertarian Billionaires](https://www.wonkette.com/p/libertarian-billionaire-seeks-to-create-island-nation-for-libertarian-billionaires)** > > It is possible that if we too had billions of dollars, we might set fire to a few million of it every day for fun and "good form" or however it is appropriate to celebrate exorbitant wealth these days, but eccentric Silicon Valley tycoon Peter Thiel... ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-land-you-can-still-buy-or-otherwise-peaceably-acquire-to-form-your-own-country/701970/53 "2014-10-28T21:39:17Z")
Yes, but why is it that you must found a new country, and have that country recognized by other countries? If you want to live on the high seas, go buy a yacht and live on the high seas. But declaring your yacht an independent country won’t mean squat when to the Russian Navy or the Swedish Coast Guard. If you want to live in a libertarian tax haven, move to the Cayman Islands. If you want to carry guns anywhere, move to Somalia. If you don’t want welfare, move to literally anywhere in the third world. Not much welfare in Haiti. The fact that your imagined libertarian paradise can’t exist unless each and every one of the statist hellhole governments that infest the rest of the world all pinky-swear to leave you the fuck alone should be a clue. These are the same governments that have created the current hellholes, yes? The leviathans that crush the individual free man, with their “laws” and “taxes” and “welfare” and “equality” and “war”, yes? So what’s in it for them to leave you the fuck alone? Why would you expect them to act differently than your ideology claims they always act? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-land-you-can-still-buy-or-otherwise-peaceably-acquire-to-form-your-own-country/701970/54 "2014-10-29T01:25:53Z")
_::Retreats to couch cushions::_ ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-land-you-can-still-buy-or-otherwise-peaceably-acquire-to-form-your-own-country/701970/55 "2014-10-29T14:12:52Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > If you want to live in a libertarian tax haven, move to the Cayman Islands. You can’t. Unless you have an income (excluding any Caymanian income) of at least $120 grand and Caymanian investments of at least $500K, or a personal net worth of $6 million and a Caymanian investment of $1 million. And those are Caymanian dollars, not US - so add 20%. ETA: Having said that, I suppose you’d be able to manage all that if you had the sort of funds necessary to set up a new country. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-land-you-can-still-buy-or-otherwise-peaceably-acquire-to-form-your-own-country/701970/56 "2014-10-29T16:35:01Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > _::Retreats to couch cushions::_ Just because you declared your couch an independent country, you think you’re invulnerable? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-land-you-can-still-buy-or-otherwise-peaceably-acquire-to-form-your-own-country/701970/57 "2014-10-29T17:09:30Z")
His coffee table may or may not have first-strike capability. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-land-you-can-still-buy-or-otherwise-peaceably-acquire-to-form-your-own-country/701970/58 "2014-10-29T20:19:35Z")
The Perfect Master speaks: [How do I go about starting my own country? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/783/how-do-i-go-about-starting-my-own-country) Previous threads that may be of interest: > **[What's going on with Sealand these days?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=689259)** > > Plenty of people around here have heard of Sealand. It’s an old WW2-era gun platform off the coast of England that a guy named Roy Bates claimed as his own independant country. And English courts backed him up, since the platform was in... > **[If I make my own island, do I own it?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=655361)** > > Suppose that I make my own island out there somewhere. I have a few thousand tons of sand and rock that I can just dump out there. If I built the island within the national waters of a country (say, the US), would I own the island in terms of real... > **[I want to homestead in Antarctica. Will I face any legal issues?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=645386)** > > (No, I don’t really intend to, it’s just a hypothetical.) I’m your friendly neighborhood eccentric multi-billionaire. I want nothing more than to have fun plunging millions and millions into trying to homestead in the frozen continent, Antarctica,... > **[Could you start a country this way?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=644422)** > > In a Cafe Society thread I started on upcoming television pilots, one stood out for me: Last Resort Logline: Centers on the crew of a U.S. nuclear submarine who, after ignoring an order to fire nuclear missiles, wind up being hunted and escape to a... > **[The Independent Republic of Bouvet Island](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=607950)** > > Not sure if this is really GQ, but I guess I’m not sure where’s better, for now. Bouvet Island is an unihabited, pretty much unapproachable, island located between Antarctica and South Africa. It belongs to, of all nations, Norway. As far as I can... > **[creating a nation - online](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=581412)** > > is it possible to create a nation online? > **[Forming your own nation](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=407203)** > > With regard to Cecil’s column, How do I go about starting my own country?, I thought I would mention this bunch over here, The Republic of Cascadia. The whole thing sounds good to me 😉 > **[Could you set up your own nation on an abandoned oil platform?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=299640)** > > Everyone has previously assured me that every island is claimed by someone and that my “party boat” would be hunted down and sunk. However, what would happen if me and fifty of my closest firends showed up to claim an abandoned oil platform... ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-land-you-can-still-buy-or-otherwise-peaceably-acquire-to-form-your-own-country/701970/59 "2014-10-31T04:12:35Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > In short, what are the chances of a group of wealthy individuals being able to acquire sovereignty and international recognition of their new state without resorting to violence or space travel to another planet? Excellent chances, so they should try it. Potential locations are too numberous to count, but I’ll start with the [Minerva Reefs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minerva_Reefs#Republic_of_Minerva). Back in 1971 libertarian visionary Michael Oliver successfully led an effort to haul in sand and pour it on to the reefs. They then constructed a platform, planted a flag, wrote a constitution, minted currency and elected a President in February 1972. Soon afterwards, the island of Tonga noticed that there was a new island located in their traditional fishing grounds. Tonga consulted with the tyrannous states of Fiji, Nauru, Samoa, Australia and New Zealand. That summer Tonga sent in a marine force, occupied the island and lowered the Minerva flag, a surprising end to such a carefully thought out venture. At the time Tonga’s population was about 95,000. The following September, Tonga’s claim to the sand and platform was recognized by the South Pacific Forum. The old island currently resides beneath the waves. The International Seabed Authority is adjudicating competing claims by Fiji and Tonga for the Minerva Reefs. Tonga has offered to trade the reefs to Fiji in exchange for the Lau Islands. But maybe the King of Tonga might cut a special deal for our intrepid millionaires. The late King Tāufaʻāhau Tupou IV carried out some interesting business transactions on behalf of the island involving passports for sale, registering ships to businesses later believed to be affiliated with Al Qaeda, geo-orbital satellite slots, hotels and casinos. Perhaps King Tupou VI could be persuaded to recognize a new nation of 99 millionaires. What could go wrong? * * * “The question isn’t who is going to let me; it’s who is going to stop me.” ― Ayn Rand A: That would be Tonga. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-land-you-can-still-buy-or-otherwise-peaceably-acquire-to-form-your-own-country/701970.md?page=2)