# Is there any legitimacy to the Sovereign Citizen argument? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097 "2017-05-07T22:25:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/221 "2017-11-26T03:47:22Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > It’s quite simple: to consent to government, a People must be able to OVERRULE it. > Otherwise they are by definition its slaves. People can overrule the government. Article V outlines the way to amend the Constitution. Every two years we vote for Congressman and 1/3 of the Senate. We (through the electoral college, a system “we” approved) vote for a President every four years. In your state, there are similar procedures. In what way are the people unable to overrule the government? ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/222 "2017-11-26T03:49:06Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Correct. But those people in each, through their representatives in government, allow themselves to be governed in accordance with state law. _When_ they choose to. Nullification and secession simply means they changed their mind-- which, as their own supreme rulers, they have every right to do. Stockholders allow their corporations to be managed by managers and CEO’s as well; but if they call a stockholder’s meeting, then they say what goes. Same with voters in a state-convention. > [@](#): > > Additionally, in 1787, those people in each state, along with the people from the other states agreed (through their representatives at the Constitutional Convention) to allow themselves to be governed by the national government, Okay, you just missed the plot, and I’m not going to teach you basic history. Take care. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/223 "2017-11-26T03:54:40Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > No it isn’t. Ya’huh > [@](#): > > Yes I do. nu’uh > [@](#): > > Yes you can. uh…? ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/224 "2017-11-26T03:56:22Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > …Nullification and secession simply means they changed their mind-- which, as their own supreme rulers, they have every right to… Lets just cut to the chase: is this an _individual_ right? ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/225 "2017-11-26T03:57:08Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > If I understand her \*\*Sarah \*\*says the people are sovereign and back in the late 1700s they delegated some of their authority to the States who in turn delegated some of that authority to the United States. You don’t. Each state is a separate sovereign nation-state by law, just like any sovereign nation in the world, as with the states of the EU or the UN. Under the Constitution, they delegated certain powers to state and federal governments, differently than they had under the Constitution. Each state remained a separate sovereign nation-state unto itself, and its respective People remained the sovereign rulers thereof-- irrespective of all agreements contained in the Constitution: the People-- i.e. the voters-- of the state, held final authority, to exercise or not as they damn-well pleased-- by law. And that law was _never changed._ That’s how it HAPPENED. As opposed to everything else. So the People of every state had, and still have, the same right to secede, as the UK had in Brexit; because the USA, like the EU, is a voluntary international union of sovereign nation-_states._ Plural. And no criminal act can change the law. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/226 "2017-11-26T04:01:14Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > You don’t. Each state is a separate sovereign nation-state by law, just like any sovereign nation in the world, as with the states of the EU or the UN. > Under the Constitution, they delegated certain powers to state and federal governments, differently than they had under the Constitution. > Each state remained a separate sovereign nation-state unto itself, and its respective People remained the sovereign rulers thereof-- irrespective of all agreements contained in the Constitution: the People-- i.e. the voters-- of the state, held final authority, to exercise or not as they damn-well pleased-- by law. > And that law was _never changed._ > > That’s how it HAPPENED. > As opposed to everything else. > So the People of every state had, and still have, the same right to secede, as the UK had in Brexit; because the USA, like the EU, is a voluntary international union of sovereign nation-_states._ > Plural. > And no criminal act can change the law. You can keep saying this over and over and over and over again without any cites or documentation and it does not make it so. In fact it is not so. I’m done. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/227 "2017-11-26T04:02:24Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > You can argue that all day, but it’s simply _irrelevant_. Only _written_ national sovereignty is fact, the rest is your opinion. > Just stick to the official law, not your personal take on it. I encourage you to [del]educate yourself[/del] find someone to educate you on First Nations’ inherent sovergenity as established through oral culture. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/228 "2017-11-26T04:03:17Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Lets just cut to the chase: is this an _individual_ right? Yes, the right of the _People._ The state is owned and ruled, equally and _in common_ among the individual citizen-voters-- who thus _delegate_ their individual will _regarding_ the state, to the state and federal government – or may, at will, vote in state convention, to exercise their right to alter or abolish it, and institute new government. Just like _any_ with corporation or commonly-owned piece of land… except each state is a separate sovereign nation as well. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/229 "2017-11-26T04:07:49Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > You still didn’t get it; and if you need me to explain it to you then it ceases to be a debate. In other words, you lost the debate. A debate requires the debators to successfully explain their positions. You have tried to explained your position to learned people who have been giving due consideration to your facts and arguments, but have not been persuaded by you, so you have lost the debate. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/230 "2017-11-26T04:11:43Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The South lost because they were dumb. No. As George Washington warned: “If Freedom of Speech is ever taken away, then we shall be led, dumb and silent, like sheep to the slaughter.” That’s why Lincoln’s first act was to _censor_ free speech under suspension of Habeas Corpus, and\* Ex parte Merryman.\* Thus, we _all_ lost. Except those few in power… but even what they lost is something bigger. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/231 "2017-11-26T04:15:50Z")
You know, this thread IS an interesting insight into the sovereign citizen mindset. Once something is written down in an official capacity - and especially if it contains useful phrasing (e.g. the treaty which ended the Revoluntionary War), it becomes LAW. Once deemed LAW, the person acquires the power to “enforce” it, because that’s what people do with law (jurisdiction - as it really exists - isn’t really a concern for sovereign citizens). A few mental gymnastics later, you’ve convinced yourself that the LAW exists which entitles you to all sorts of legal immunity, and it’s simply not being followed because people don’t know the rights they have. Much of American history has been en example of extra-judicial power grabs. As a philosophy, it’s very much the opposite of legal realism. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/232 "2017-11-26T04:17:31Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > And no criminal act can change the law. The American Revolution was a criminal act that resulted in the creation of the sovereign United States of America. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/233 "2017-11-26T04:19:51Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > > [@SarahWitch](#): > > > > If you want to write fiction, this isn’t the place for it. It was about one thing, and ONLY one thing: national sovereignty. > > That’s was the CSA states’ sole _legal_ basis for secession, and the federal government’s legal basis for\* invasion\*; that is a simple fact, and if you _deny_ this you are simply wrong. > > I invite you to consider primary sources. Slavery was the prime reason for secession. > [The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States | American Battlefield Trust](https://www.civilwar.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states) > > > [@SarahWitch](#): > > > > You can _deny_ history, but you can’t change what happened; it just makes you the worse. > > This is fucking hilarious. Newsflash:The confederate traitors lost. Secession is illegal. The United States is one nation. Do you _seriously_ expect her to respond to this? Of course if she does, she’ll no doubt simply say that the original documents were faked. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/234 "2017-11-26T04:22:05Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > you did say in this thread that: > > “So only the CSA had the correct legal argument: i.e. that each state is a separate nation-state unto itself, but supremely ruled by its respective People (i.e. its citizen-voters).” > > and I’d like to explore that, because from what I know of the CSA, it didn’t act as if each state was a separate nation-state unto itself, I see you are incapable of understanding a legal argument. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/235 "2017-11-26T04:26:28Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > If you want to write fiction, this isn’t the place for it. It was about one thing, and ONLY one thing: national sovereignty. > That’s was the CSA states’ sole _legal_ basis for secession Nah, that’s just the line used by racist revisionists to try to sweep away slavery, Jim Crowe, their fight against civil rights, and their oppression of blacks today. Surely you’re not in that camp. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/236 "2017-11-26T04:40:38Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > So I can’t say that I think someone is being intellectually dishonest? In this forum, no, but in “[The Pit](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=842913)” forum, yes. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/237 "2017-11-26T04:46:09Z")
\*\* > [@SarahWitch](#): > > If you want to write fiction, this isn’t the place for it. It was about one thing, and ONLY one thing: national sovereignty. Just silly arguments to avoid why that sovereignty was called for. For the confederacy it was national sovereignty to continue slavery. Even high schoolers know that. [QUOTE] \*\*Present John\*\*: Hi, I'm John Green, this is Crash Course US History, and today we discuss one of the most confusing questions in American history: What caused the Civil War? Just kidding, it’s not a confusing question at all; slavery caused the civil war. **Past John** : Mr. Green, Mr Green, what about, like, state’s rights, and nationalism, economics? **Present John** : Me from the past, your senior year of high school, you will be taught American Government by Mr. Fleming, _a white Southerner_ who will seem to you to be about a hundred eight-two years old, and you will say something to him in class about state’s rights, and Mr. Fleming will turn to you and he will say “A state’s right to what, sir?” And for the first time in your snotty little life you will be well and truly speechless. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/238 "2017-11-26T04:51:03Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Right where it says "these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States,\*they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do.” > > That _defines_ sovereign nation-states, and nothing else. > > And furthermore, this was retained in 1781, and officially recognized under the 1783 Treaty of Paris under International Law. > I don’t know what part of “free, sovereign and independent states” you don’t understand. That doesn’t say what you claim it says. No amount of italics will make it say that. Even it the1783 Treaty of Paris defines the Unites Sates in 2017, it does not say what you claim. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/239 "2017-11-26T05:08:52Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Oh, no. I expressly mentioned that the \*People \*of each state were the sovereign national authority therein; because they _are_. > State governments were actually _below_ the federal government in the Constitution’s delegated chain-of-command, but both were completely subordinate to the People of the individual nation-state. > FACT. > Hope this clears things up. Then, > [@SarahWitch](#): > > This is quibbling. The sole issue is national sovereignty of a individual nation-states, which the USA does not have over its member-states-- as the federal government _claims_. Nothing else matters. > … > > That’s what it was ALL about. If the North admitted that the truth, that the states were sovereign nation-states, then there could have been no war; however charlatans fabricated many arguments to _deny_ this fact under color of law, from Jackson to Lincoln. Make this work. These two assertions appear to be irreconcilable. It is worth noting that 37 of the States in the US were _established by the US government_. Several of the CSA states – AL, MS, TN – were carved out of amorphous territory to the west of existing states (GA, NC), so their claim to individual sovereignty must be based on their membership in the Union which established them. Once they declared secession, the foundation of their existence, as far as the US was concerned, is gone. What the People of those states wanted was kind of irrelevant until they had established themselves as sovereign nation entities, which they failed to do either through defense or through negotiation. Perhaps you could direct us to the second best expert on the law, who might be able to clarify your positions? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/240 "2017-11-26T05:25:08Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > No it isn’t. How would\* you\* know what is and what is not customary on these boards? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097.md?page=13)