# Is there any legitimacy to the Sovereign Citizen argument? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097 "2017-05-07T22:25:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/241 "2017-11-26T05:46:42Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > I see you are incapable of understanding a legal argument. Quite possibly. It would be nice if I could hear one and see. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/242 "2017-11-26T06:00:16Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Oh, no. I expressly mentioned that the \*People \*of each state were the sovereign national authority therein; because they _are_. > State governments were actually _below_ the federal government in the Constitution’s delegated chain-of-command, but both were completely subordinate to the People of the individual nation-state. > FACT. > Hope this clears things up. So by your reasoning, the USA and the fifty states and the people throughout that terriroty are completely subordinate to first peoples of the First Nations. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/243 "2017-11-26T06:02:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How would\* you\* know what is and what is not customary on these boards? She is the premier expert on American law. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/244 "2017-11-26T06:21:57Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Okay. For the record, I did read the rules, but they can mean different things to different people. About this - we have an entire forum dedicated to board related matters, including questions about rules, how we interpret them, etc. That forum is [About This Message Board.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?f=2) Any questions about rules, moderation, etc. are appropriate in that forum and the staff will do their best to answer any questions you may have or clarify ambiguity that may be present. Feel free to pose questions in that forum if you want clarity around any board rule. In this forum however, Great Debates, I would expect that any assertion of fact may be challenged, and poorly supported arguments called out. It’s the raison d’être of the forum. No one here is responsible to make your arguments for you and if you are unable or unwilling to do so on your own, it’s likely to not be persuasive. > [@SarahWitch](#): > > I see you are incapable of understanding a legal argument. I’m going to give this another try. Do not personalize arguments in this fashion. Readers can judge for themselves what constitutes a legal argument, much less a persuasive one. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/245 "2017-11-26T06:35:59Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > In this forum however, Great Debates, I would expect that any assertion of fact may be challenged, and poorly supported arguments called out. It’s the raison d’être of the forum. No one here is responsible to make your arguments for you and if you are unable or unwilling to do so on your own, it’s likely to not be persuasive. Well I never did that, regardless of whether you agree or not. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/246 "2017-11-26T06:40:56Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Quite possibly. It would be nice if I could hear one and see. Unfortunately you would have to learn to differentiate a legal argument from a tu quoque argument., which is the heart of our language barrier here. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/247 "2017-11-26T06:48:03Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > No it isn’t. > > Yes I do. > > Yes you can. I, for one, would love to hear more about the customs of a board you joined less than 48 hours ago. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/248 "2017-11-26T06:48:19Z")
> [@j666](#): > > That doesn’t say what you claim it says. No amount of italics will make it say that. Even it the1783 Treaty of Paris defines the Unites Sates in 2017, it does not say what you claim. Can’t argue with that line of reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/249 "2017-11-26T06:49:44Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > I, for one, would love to hear more about the customs of a board you joined less than 48 hours ago. Only that long? I guess it only seems like 5 years. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/250 "2017-11-26T06:57:24Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > It is worth noting that 37 of the States in the US were _established by the US government_. No, there were admitted into the Union by the United States government, and recognized by the existing prior States-- just like the initial States were first recognized in turn by Britain, France, and other nations existing before the original states. If you care to read the Declaration of Independence, it clearly asserts that National sovereignty derives from the people of the nation-state in question, by virtue of the natural rights endowed equally to them by their Supreme creator-- not by title to real estate. You would do well to learn this underlying philosophy, if you want to understand the logic by which it operates. So each state is a Sovereign Nation unto itself, regardless of when it was recognized and admitted into the Union, supremely owned and ruled by its respective people. Otherwise, it would simply be a territory of the United States, which is held in common by the individual states. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/251 "2017-11-26T07:02:29Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > \*\* > > Just silly arguments to avoid why that sovereignty was called for. For the confederacy it was national sovereignty to continue slavery. > > Even high schoolers know that. Among other myths. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/252 "2017-11-26T07:37:44Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > No, there were admitted into the Union by the United States government, and recognized by the existing prior States-- just like the initial States were first recognized in turn by Britain, France, and other nations existing before the original states. The initial states operated under the Articles of Confederacy, which was a significantly different compact than the US Constitution that followed several years later. It might have made sense for the other nations to recognize the individual states in 1783, but the nature of the relationship among those states changed when they adopted the US Constitution. The AofC was discarded because it was not practical for the states to function as part of a confederation. Hence, they United as a coherent nation. > [@](#): > > If you care to read the Declaration of Independence, it clearly asserts that National sovereignty derives from the people of the nation-state in question, by virtue of the natural rights endowed equally to them by their Supreme creator-- not by title to real estate. I **have** read the Declaration of Independence. I used to have a nice parchment copy given to me by my dad’s insurance agent. It says, > [@](#): > > \*Mr. Hanover, et al: > > Since we are driven to part ways, it seemed good manners to let you know what the deal is. > > You think you are something special because of your pedigree and your title. We do not see it that way, everyone deserves fair treatment from a properly set up, equitable government. And while people will often put up with a lot of abuse from their leaders, the time will come when they have had enough. Not only is it the right of the oppressed to throw off the oppressor, for their children, it is their duty. > > So this is the crap you, George, have heaped on us: > • You enact arbitrary laws or refuse to enact the laws we need > • You contrive to make it absurdly inconvenient for us to take part in the process > • You disband or constitute legislative and judicial bodies for no apparent reason and send bureaucrats to harass us > • You sent in your army, who have moved into our houses and are enforcing your silly laws – and abrogation of law – on us, so that you can rape, ravage, plunder and pilfer us and our stuff > • You force our own people to fight against us, and you have been stirring up trouble for us amongst the Indians. > > We keep asking, please, would you be so kind as to tone it down a tad, but nope. You just keep acting like some kind of tyrant, and quite frankly, we are fed up with it. > > So it is that we are now getting a divorce from you. It is only fitting, and our loyalties are henceforth to each other, not to you, you jerk. > > Have a nice day.\* > [@](#): > > You would do well to learn this underlying philosophy, if you want to understand the logic by which it operates. You might do well to learn that the Declaration of Independence was composed twelve years before the Constitution, when the states were organized under the AofC, and has absolutely no force of law. It was a letter to the King, written in TJ’s floweriest language that expressed how passing aggrieved the Americans had become. It does not “operate”. > [@](#): > > So each state is a Sovereign Nation unto itself, regardless of when it was recognized and admitted into the Union, supremely owned and ruled by its respective people. Otherwise, it would simply be a territory of the United States, which is held in common by the individual states. This is not at all accurate. Consider the territory that TJ bought from Bonaparte’s France, which was purchased with funds from the US treasury. This real estate was eventually organized into a number of states. The states acquired their statehood from the US Congress. They were little more than just some land before being recognized as member states. If an individual state were to unilaterally secede from the US, what would its status be? How would the global community recognize it? Your argument that the War of Northern Aggression was unjustified lacks footing. The war was over slavery, exacerbated by economic decline in the South. Those states made absolutely no effort at orderly, negotiated secession. Once they tried to seize land owned by the US government, without just compensation, they lost any right to call the war “illegal”. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/253 "2017-11-26T08:18:09Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > The initial states operated under the Articles of Confederacy, which was a significantly different compact than the US Constitution that followed several years later. It might have made sense for the other nations to recognize the individual states in 1783, but the nature of the relationship among those states changed when they adopted the US Constitution. The AofC was discarded because it was not practical for the states to function as part of a confederation. Hence, they United as a coherent nation. The Constitution doesn’t expressly say that. _You_ do. > [@](#): > > I **have** read the Declaration of Independence. I used to have a nice parchment copy given to me by my dad’s insurance agent. It says, Wow, it’s great that your daddy’s friends are so nice. Say bye-bye! ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/254 "2017-11-26T12:12:15Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > > [@GIGObuster](#): > > > > For the confederacy it was national sovereignty to continue slavery. > > Among other myths. Revisionism over slavery in the USA is truly vile, for it denies admitting resposibility for generations of hatred and horror. You, the self-appointed premier expert on American law, have claimed false authority in your efforts to promote revisionism. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/255 "2017-11-26T12:46:35Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > No. As George Washington warned: “If Freedom of Speech is ever taken away, then we shall be led, dumb and silent, like sheep to the slaughter.” > That’s why Lincoln’s first act was to _censor_ free speech under suspension of Habeas Corpus, and\* Ex parte Merryman.\* > Thus, we _all_ lost. Except those few in power… but even what they lost is something bigger. Dumb as posts, the South was. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/256 "2017-11-26T13:32:42Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > No, there were admitted into the Union by the United States government, and recognized by the existing prior States-- just like the initial States were first recognized in turn by Britain, France, and other nations existing before the original states. > > If you care to read the Declaration of Independence, it clearly asserts that National sovereignty derives from the people of the nation-state in question, by virtue of the natural rights endowed equally to them by their Supreme creator-- not by title to real estate. :dubious: Those “other nations” to which you refer, recognized - at least in Europe since the 1648 Peace of Westphalia - as sovereign nations by each other, did not predominantly hew to your conception of their sovereignty deriving from “the people of the nation-state in question”. As a matter of fact, those European states included [theocracies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_States) and vast, feudal estates held as the personal property of a family [dynasty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Romanov). Indeed, the whole point of the Westphalian peace was to establish and respect the rights of other nations as having exclusive authority within their respective domains; these domains were - in fact - defined by the “title to real estate” to which you refer above in dismissive fashion. The same year that those traitorous, slave-holding scum declared war upon the USA was the year that Imperial Russia finally deigned to liberate its millions of serfs from the bondage of feudalism. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/257 "2017-11-26T14:41:22Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Can’t argue with that line of reasoning. And that is the issue here, you have not, and here indicate that you **cannot** , provide arguments in defense of your positions. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/258 "2017-11-26T15:06:45Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > The same year that those traitorous, slave-holding scum declared war upon the USA was the year that Imperial Russia finally deigned to liberate its millions of serfs from the bondage of feudalism. What do you mean those traitorous, slave-holding scum declared war on the USA? **[del]Jesus Christ[/del] SarahWitch** said it was a Northern invasion and had nothing to do with slavery. And, well, she’s the premier expert on American law.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/259 "2017-11-26T15:11:19Z")
Perhaps so. But her American \*History \*on the other hand is very flaky. Provably, citably flakey. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/260 "2017-11-26T15:31:45Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Perhaps so. > > But her American \*History \*on the other hand is very flaky. Provably, citably flakey. Cites are for amateurs and reality is for slavish sheep who can’t handle the TRUTH. All you need to do is assert self-designated preeminent authority, make unfounded claims and dismissively hand-wave away all challenges to the contrary. _ **Victoria ad absurdum!** _ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097.md?page=14)