# Is there any legitimacy to the Sovereign Citizen argument? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097 "2017-05-07T22:25:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/261 "2017-11-26T15:46:51Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Among other myths. See, everybody? I told you she wouldn’t believe the original declarations by the seceding states! I wonder: When the seceding states say, in writing, ‘We are seceding to preserve the institution of slavery,’ what part of that does **SarahWitch** not understand? ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/262 "2017-11-26T15:50:36Z")
> [@j666](#): > > And that is the issue here, you have not, and here indicate that you **cannot** , provide arguments in defense of your positions. I already have, your inability to comprehend them is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/263 "2017-11-26T15:51:52Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Perhaps so. > > But her American \*History \*on the other hand is very flaky. Provably, citably flakey. in your mind. Not in reality. Otherwise you would have done so, and you have not. As proven by your ad hominem rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/264 "2017-11-26T15:57:22Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > What do you mean those traitorous, slave-holding scum declared war on the USA? **[del]Jesus Christ[/del] SarahWitch** said it was a Northern invasion and had nothing to do with slavery. And, well, she’s the premier expert on American law.:rolleyes: Enjoy your little temper tantrum? Apparently you missed the the label This Thread, it’s a debate. Not a cult. You must be in the wrong room. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/265 "2017-11-26T15:58:37Z")
Good morning, Sunshine! Welcome back to the debate. Regards Muffin ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/266 "2017-11-26T16:02:42Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > :dubious: > > Those “other nations” to which you refer, recognized - at least in Europe since the 1648 Peace of Westphalia - as sovereign nations by each other, did not predominantly hew to your conception of their sovereignty deriving from “the people of the nation-state in question”. As a matter of fact, those European states included . that’s nice. And irrelevant. The American states did, and perhaps you missed the fact that this is what we’re talking about. Once they recognized sovereignty, of another state, That’s All She Wrote; since that was the deal-- each state was a Sovereign Nation wholly owned and ruled as prospective people; its membership in the Union was purely voluntary just like the European Union. The problem here is that you only have a passing knowledge of what you’re talking about, so you are just parroting dogma and spouting drivel to support your narrative. Like everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/267 "2017-11-26T16:10:20Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Dumb as posts, the South was. you would know about dumbass posts. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/268 "2017-11-26T16:13:45Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > that’s nice. > And irrelevant. The American states did, and perhaps you missed the fact that this is what we’re talking about. Once they recognized sovereignty, of another state, That’s All She Wrote; since that was the deal-- each state was a Sovereign Nation wholly owned and ruled as prospective people; its membership in the Union was purely voluntary just like the European Union. > The problem here is that you only have a passing knowledge of what you’re talking about, so you are just parroting dogma and spouting drivel to support your narrative. Like everyone else. Get to the fucking punchline of your long winded set-up, will you. What is it that you propose be done with this so-called farce of the “United” States? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/269 "2017-11-26T16:14:58Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > you would know about dumbass posts. We’re all experts by now. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/270 "2017-11-26T16:16:23Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Get to the fucking punchline of your long winded set-up, will you. What is it that you propose be done with this so-called farce of the “United” States? I’m curious too. Let’s say we buy the setup-What’s the payoff? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/271 "2017-11-26T16:17:35Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > A > > > [@SarahWitch](#): > > > > I see you are incapable of understanding a legal argument. > > I’m going to give this another try. Do not personalize arguments in this fashion. Readers can judge for themselves what constitutes a legal argument, much less a persuasive one. > > [/moderating] Perhaps you missed the above exchange. You must have, given this: > [@SarahWitch](#): > > I already have, your inability to comprehend them is irrelevant. > [@SarahWitch](#): > > you would know about dumbass posts. This is a warning for failure to follow a moderator’s instructions. Given your short stint I’ve made an effort to use kid gloves here. With your seeming refusal to follow the rules of the forum that approach isn’t working so **I am going to suspend you for 3 days.** If you care to return, please remember when communicating in this forum a certain level of civility is required. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/272 "2017-11-26T16:19:12Z")
Darn, Bone. We were just getting to the punchline. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/273 "2017-11-26T16:22:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m curious too. Let’s say we buy the setup-What’s the payoff? Trying not to pile on, since ref **Bone** just above she’s now in time-out, but I tried that approach near the top of page 5. And was briskly told that I didn’t understand. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/274 "2017-11-26T16:47:50Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > that’s nice. > And irrelevant. The American states did, and perhaps you missed the fact that this is what we’re talking about. Once they recognized sovereignty, of another state, That’s All She Wrote; since that was the deal-- each state was a Sovereign Nation wholly owned and ruled as prospective people; its membership in the Union was purely voluntary just like the European Union. > The problem here is that you only have a passing knowledge of what you’re talking about, so you are just parroting dogma and spouting drivel to support your narrative. Like everyone else. Not irrelevant at all, actually. You were the one who asserted, “National sovereignty derives from the people of the nation-state in question, by virtue of the natural rights endowed equally to them by their Supreme creator-- not by title to real estate.” This was in response to **eschereal** noting that all states other than the original Thirteen Colonies were established by the US federal government. I was drawing attention to the inconsistency of your argument, noting that those European states did not give a toss about the “natural rights” of Pennsylvania farmers or Connecticut fishermen, and yet you cite them as authorities from which the sovereignty of your colonial “nation-states” were recognized. Not only did they care solely about the “real estate” in question, they couldn’t even agree amongst themselves if these American entities, as a whole, represented new nation(s) or not (especially Britain vis-a-vis France, Spain, and the Netherlands, between 1776 and 1783). For your theory to be correct, these same external actors (i.e. other nation-states) would not have recognized or respected US claims to authority over vast swathes of [unorganized territory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unorganized_territory) (e.g., Northwest Territory, Louisiana Purchase, Oregon Territory, Mexican Cession, etc.) prior to such lands being subdivided and parceled out as individual American states. This is a process which took decades, in some cases. While the territory was unorganized, other nations recognized it as US territory, regardless of the absence of Michigan or Oklahoma or what-have-you. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/275 "2017-11-26T16:53:22Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Enjoy your little temper tantrum? Apparently you missed the the label This Thread, it’s a debate. Not a cult. You must be in the wrong room. Is this supposed to be in English? ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/276 "2017-11-26T17:05:06Z")
Now that that’s over (for now, anyway) I’d like to get back to the OP. A lot of people have made fun of the SCs for believing in magic words and secret laws that can get you out of trouble. But they exist. The secret part is relative, of course. _We_ all know them: “Am I free to go?” “I do not consent to a search.” “I am invoking my right to remain silent.” “I would like to speak to an attorney.” The fact that these magic formulae are so widely known as to be the opposite of secret is likely to be cold comfort to someone just sentenced to 20 years because he let a cop search his drug-filled car, thinking he had no choice. And that happens all the time. Our legal system really does rely to a very great degree on criminals not knowing or not excercising their legal rights. These words will protect you from a great deal of legal trouble, even if you are actually breaking the law, but they have to be said in the right way, to the right people, at the right time in order to work. Answer, “Do you know how fast you were going?” with one of them, and you invite more trouble. Stay silent without invoking your right to do so, and it CAN be held against you. So someone gets busted for a crime (or knows someone who does) because they don’t know their rights, and they think, “Holy shit! I’d better learn these rights I have and the special words I have to say to invoke them!” An internet search will reveal the truth about how to deal with cops, and plenty of real lawyers to help you for a fee, but it will also get you plenty of people making confident and grandiose claims and asking far less money than a lawyer to tell you the REAL secret phrases even the lawyers won’t tell you about. It’s no wonder many people get snookered. To someone without basic knowledge of our legal system, the claims of CS gurus are just too plausible. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/277 "2017-11-26T17:13:05Z")
The above also gives a plausible answer to “Why doesn’t the government legislate away these secret loopholes?” It would be the same reasons we don’t legislate away the right to refuse consent to a search without probable cause, even though police would have to let a lot of people go if everyone knew about and invoked that right. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/278 "2017-11-26T17:13:34Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > A lot of people have made fun of the SCs for believing in magic words and secret laws that can get you out of trouble. But they exist. The secret part is relative, of course. _We_ all know them:… If we all pretty much know them then your examples are irrelevant and should play no part in this discussion, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/279 "2017-11-26T17:26:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If we all pretty much know them then your examples are irrelevant and should play no part in this discussion, in my opinion. I don’t understand your objection. The fact that we know them doesn’t make them irrelevant if they help explain the thinking of SCs. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/280 "2017-11-26T17:37:02Z")
Sovereign Citizens have heard of people being released due to “technicalities” and so they endeavour to create technicalities. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097.md?page=15)