# Is there any legitimacy to the Sovereign Citizen argument? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097 "2017-05-07T22:25:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/281 "2017-11-26T17:57:27Z")
Knowledge of how the legal system works, and of how one should best interact with it, should be covered in civics through schools, youth organizations, and legal information organizations. People spreading false information on how to interact with the legal system work against this, and sometimes cause actual harm when their advice is followed. Harm is caused when aggrieved individuals’ access to justice is delayed, particularly when they suffer ongoing costs prior to and during litigation, Aside from litigants contesting with nutters, the entire system is slowed down slightly, which also costs. It has become a problem in Canada to the degree that lawyers and notaries have been encouraged to learn to recognize this sort of nutter and develop strategies to deal with them. Near the start of the thread, the Alberta [Meads](https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.html) decision was referenced. I encourage anyone interested in the issue to read it. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/282 "2017-11-26T18:21:10Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Sovereign Citizens have heard of people being released due to “technicalities” and so they endeavour to create technicalities. That’s a much more succint way to put it. And in a way not so much “create” as “go looking for anything that sounds like the technicality that will get me off”. As to their pulling up arcane and often anachronistic legal interpretations, on the recent posts there has been a hint of something I’ve observed in SC’s. Much in the way of some religious Fundamentalists who believe they are restoring some “real, original” form of the religion that got “corrupted” by Establishment clerics, by allegedly looking at the text of some scripture and claiming they can tell the real meaning and that it overrides centuries of theological scholarship, they believe they are restoring the “real” regime of Natural Right that has been corrupted by the Political Establishment, by looking at some old legal texts and decreeing they can tell their real meaning and it overrides centuries of case and statute law. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/283 "2017-11-26T19:29:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If we all pretty much know them then your examples are irrelevant and should play no part in this discussion, in my opinion. We don’t all know about them. People are still burned ALL the time for not realizing they can refuse a search, or remain silent, or ask for a lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/284 "2017-11-26T19:36:22Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > As to their pulling up arcane and often anachronistic legal interpretations, on the recent posts there has been a hint of something I’ve observed in SC’s. Much in the way of some religious Fundamentalists who believe they are restoring some “real, original” form > of the religion that got “corrupted” by Establishment clerics, by allegedly looking at the text of some scripture and claiming they can tell the real meaning and that it overrides centuries of theological scholarship, they believe they are restoring the “real” regime of Natural Right that has been corrupted by the Political Establishment, by looking at some old legal texts and decreeing they can tell their real meaning and it overrides centuries of case and statute law. Agreed. And the common theme is that “the people” are sovereign. Of course, they/we are sovereign. We can elect representatives or change the Constitution according to the prescribed rules. One of those rules are the “conventions” that can be formed for amending the Constitution. However, somewhere this gets skewed into “the people=me and my seven friends” and “convention=me and my seven friends meeting in my mother’s basement.” They take a general text, read it, and then “comprehend” it to mean, absolutely and without question, what they say it means. It is really a very interesting psychological case study. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/285 "2017-11-26T19:37:43Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Say bye-bye! well, wasn’t that prophetic ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/286 "2017-11-26T19:43:22Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > They take a general text, read it, and then “comprehend” it to mean, absolutely and without question, what they say it means. It is really a very interesting psychological case study. 'When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.’ ‘The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’ ‘The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master—that’s all.’ ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/287 "2017-11-26T20:27:43Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Among other myths. I still remember that back around 2001 a moon hoaxer told me in this board that in a decade all school children would be educated on the why it was a myth that humans landed on the moon. More than 10 years later there was no change in the history books about Neil and Buzz leaving footprints there. [It is true that efforts have been made to hide or **deny** the history of what took place with the south and its rebellion](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/08/23/we-dont-erase-history-by-pulling-statues-down-we-do-it-by-putting-them-up/), and no. [No hay the piña](http://www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?spen=no+hay+de+pi%C3%B1a). (there is none of the pineapple kind, meaning: impossible) Slavery remains the reason why they decided to be “sovereign” and there is no effort afoot to ignore that big reason in academic circles. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/288 "2017-11-26T23:28:14Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > Here’s a prolonged takedown of one such individual in a Canadian court case, along with an explanation of the various kinds of commonly-raised nuttiness, here: > > Link: [https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.html](https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.html) > > It’s long, but interesting, and also hilarious. > [@](#): > > This Court has developed a new awareness and understanding of a category of vexatious litigant. Anything that starts with that as the first sentence requires popcorn and a comfy chair. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/289 "2017-11-26T23:39:37Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > [It is true that efforts have been made to hide or **deny** the history of what took place with the south and its rebellion](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/08/23/we-dont-erase-history-by-pulling-statues-down-we-do-it-by-putting-them-up/), and no. [No hay the piña](http://www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?spen=no+hay+de+pi%C3%B1a). (there is none of the pineapple kind, meaning: impossible) Slavery remains the reason why they decided to be “sovereign” and there is no effort afoot to ignore that big reason in academic circles. Well, if we look at Aristotle’s Four Causes, we could posit that Slavery was the Final Cause, Sovereignty was the Formal Cause Fort Sumter was the Efficient Cause and the various declarations of secession were the Material Causes. 😃 Of course, any declaration that slavery was not the final and primary cause are simply efforts to re-write history to support some odd, personal goal that have no bearings on reality. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/290 "2017-11-29T17:11:43Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Well, if we look at Aristotle’s Four Causes, we could posit that > Slavery was the Final Cause, > Sovereignty was the Formal Cause > Fort Sumter was the Efficient Cause > and > the various declarations of secession were the Material Causes. > 😃 > > Of course, any declaration that slavery was not the final and primary cause are simply efforts to re-write history to support some odd, personal goal that have no bearings on reality. The states were sovereign nations, by law. The federal government denied this, as it denied existing slavery as the cause of their refusing secession. But the proof is plain, and you’ve forfeited your counter. We’re done here. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/291 "2017-11-29T17:14:41Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I still remember that back around 2001 a moon hoaxer told me in this board that in a decade all school children would be educated on the why it was a myth that humans landed on the moon. More than 10 years later there was no change in the history books about Neil and Buzz leaving footprints there. Nice strawman. But each state is a sovereign nation, by law; I’ve proved it, and you’ve _acquiesced_ to that proof. Checkmate. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/292 "2017-11-29T17:19:08Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > We don’t all know about them. People are still burned ALL the time for not realizing they can refuse a search, or remain silent, or ask for a lawyer. Point of fact: the court has ruled that the 5th Amendment is an active defense, i.e. one must affirmatively proclaim that they are exercising their 5th Amendment right to remain silent. So you can’t just say nothing, since that constitutes omission; you have to affirmatively state words to the effect of “I assert my right to remain silent under the 5th Amendment to the US Constitution.” Or you can ask for a lawyer, which is even better since then they can’t ask you any more questions once arrested. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/293 "2017-11-29T17:20:07Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Nice strawman. But each state is a sovereign nation, Proof please. > [@](#): > > by law; Proof please. > [@](#): > > I’ve proved it, When did you do that? Post # please. > [@](#): > > and you’ve _acquiesced_ to that proof. When did he do that? Post # please. > [@](#): > > Checkmate. Gin! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/294 "2017-11-29T17:21:24Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Nice strawman. But each state is a sovereign nation, by law; I’ve proved it, and you’ve _acquiesced_ to that proof. > Checkmate. 1. They were under the Articles of Conferation,but that stopped when they ratified the Constitution. As was expained to you, previously. 2. No you haven’t. 3. Not enen mate. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/295 "2017-11-29T17:24:18Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Not irrelevant at all, actually. You were the one who asserted, “National sovereignty derives from the people of the nation-state in question, by virtue of the natural rights endowed equally to them by their Supreme creator-- not by title to real estate.” This was in response to **eschereal** noting that all states other than the original Thirteen Colonies were established by the US federal government. > > I was drawing attention to the inconsistency of your argument, noting that those European states did not give a toss about the “natural rights” of Pennsylvania farmers or Connecticut fishermen, and yet you cite them as authorities from which the sovereignty of your colonial “nation-states” were recognized. Not only did they care solely about the “real estate” in question, they couldn’t even agree amongst themselves if these American entities, as a whole, represented new nation(s) or not (especially Britain vis-a-vis France, Spain, and the Netherlands, between 1776 and 1783). > > For your theory to be correct, these same external actors (i.e. other nation-states) would not have recognized or respected US claims to authority over vast swathes of [unorganized territory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unorganized_territory) (e.g., Northwest Territory, Louisiana Purchase, Oregon Territory, Mexican Cession, etc.) prior to such lands being subdivided and parceled out as individual American states. This is a process which took decades, in some cases. While the territory was unorganized, other nations recognized it as US territory, regardless of the absence of Michigan or Oklahoma or what-have-you. You wrote " they couldn’t even agree amongst themselves if these American entities, as a whole, represented new nation(s) or not," which is absolute garbage from square 1: they were ALWAYS separate nations, everything else was _delegated._ Since your entire argument hinges on that, it’s a wash too. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/296 "2017-11-29T17:25:07Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > You’re not a person of law, are you? Where did you get your law degree? ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/297 "2017-11-29T17:28:52Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Is this supposed to be in English? Why, is that your second language? ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/298 "2017-11-29T17:31:15Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > The above also gives a plausible answer to “Why doesn’t the government legislate away these secret loopholes?” It would be the same reasons we don’t legislate away the right to refuse consent to a search without probable cause, even though police would have to let a lot of people go if everyone knew about and invoked that right. I never thought of the 4th Amendment as a “loophole.” ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/299 "2017-11-29T17:35:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m curious too. Let’s say we buy the setup-What’s the payoff? The People of each state will once again consent to their government, by having the power to _overrule_ it by popular vote-- just like they did in 1787-9. Thus currently, they do \*not \*consent to their government, which is thus a covert oligarchy. Voting for middlemen, and nothing more than that, is not consent; it’s an _ultimatum._ ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/300 "2017-11-29T17:41:07Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > You wrote " they couldn’t even agree amongst themselves if these American entities, as a whole, represented new nation(s) or not," which is absolute garbage from square 1: they were ALWAYS separate nations, everything else was _delegated._ > Since your entire argument hinges on that, it’s a wash too. What a ridiculous assertion you just made here. You seem oblivious to the fact that Britain was at war with its rebellious American colonies for 8 years, during which time they did not - of course - recognize the sovereignty of said colonies. Meanwhile, France, Spain, and the Netherlands all recognized the independence of the Thirteen Colonies long before the Treaty of Paris was signed. And again, you completely ignore the significance of unorganized territory which was recognized internationally as US territory for years or decades before individual states were carved out of said territory. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097.md?page=16)