# Is there any legitimacy to the Sovereign Citizen argument? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097 "2017-05-07T22:25:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/301 "2017-11-29T17:43:05Z")
What degree(s) in Law do have, and where did you get them? Normally I wouldn’t ask, but anyone who claims to be a “premier” expert in Law should expect to have such a lofty claim questioned, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/302 "2017-11-29T17:50:01Z")
I’m still curious as to how SarahWitch is THE leading expert on American law. I mean, that’s a hell of a claim. I’d like to know at least part of that incredible resumé. > [@SarahWitch](#): > > Point of fact: the court has ruled that the 5th Amendment is an active defense, i.e. one must affirmatively proclaim that they are exercising their 5th Amendment right to remain silent. So you can’t just say nothing, since that constitutes omission; you have to affirmatively state words to the effect of "I assert my right to remain silent under the 5th Amendment to the US Constitution. When is this true, and when it is not true? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/303 "2017-11-29T17:50:51Z")
It’s true in Hollywood. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/304 "2017-11-29T17:52:32Z")
It’s true in some situations but not in others. There is no one rule. I’m asking the biggest law expert there is. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/305 "2017-11-29T17:52:55Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > The states were sovereign nations, by law. The federal government denied this, as it denied existing slavery as the cause of their refusing secession. > But the proof is plain, and you’ve forfeited your counter. We’re done here. Sorry. That you make a claim about “sovereignty” fails to make it a reality. That no one but a handful of late 20th century cranks has pushed this idea that was never even addressed by the participants at the time fails to make your claim a reality. I realize that you need to hold this idea dear, but the rest of the world is not required to humor you. (And if you persist in simply making unsupported claims, over and over, and failing to provide evidence, you will fail to persuade anyone else.) If by “done here” you mean that you have no legitimate argument and will refuse to engage my observations, that is fine. I, however, have no need to refrain from pointing out your errors. The declarations of secession from multiple states identified slavery as the primary cause and the CSA vice-president, Alexander Stephens, made the same claim in his “Cornerstone Speech” that was widely re-printed and applauded across the South at the time of secession. I gave you a potential out with my reference to Aristotle. One may look at different _causes_ in different ways. However, if you choose to ignore that, I can always fall back on the clear statement that you are posting silliness. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/306 "2017-11-29T18:09:43Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > The People of each state will once again consent to their government, by having the power to _overrule_ it by popular vote-- just like they did in 1787-9.\* Since none of the colonies ever consented to or asserted their independence via popular vote, your argument fails on its face. The colonies were all created as royal charters from England or the United Kingdom, (depending on date). On the one had, you want to claim that it was the recognition of the states’ “sovereignty” by European nations that placed the sovereignty into law, (as if recognition by outside agents can bestow sovereignty on a territory “in law”). However, you then keep repeating this claim that the sovereignty arose from the people when no such vote of the people ever occurred. The Declaration of Independence was cobbled together by a handful of men who were selected by the various legislatures of the various colonies and was never put to a popular vote. To the extent that the DoI was even accepted by the various colonies-turned-states, it occurred through legislatures, so your whole claim is based in nonsense. You are not even consistent in your arguments. Was it European nations that made sovereignty law or was it a non-existent popular vote? ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/307 "2017-11-29T19:14:10Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Since none of the colonies ever consented to or asserted their independence via popular vote, your argument fails on its face. The colonies were all created as royal charters from England or the United Kingdom, (depending on date). > On the one had, you want to claim that it was the recognition of the states’ “sovereignty” by European nations that placed the sovereignty into law, (as if recognition by outside agents can bestow sovereignty on a territory “in law”). However, you then keep repeating this claim that the sovereignty arose from the people when no such vote of the people ever occurred. The Declaration of Independence was cobbled together by a handful of men who were selected by the various legislatures of the various colonies and was never put to a popular vote. To the extent that the DoI was even accepted by the various colonies-turned-states, it occurred through legislatures, so your whole claim is based in nonsense. > You are not even consistent in your arguments. Was it European nations that made sovereignty law or was it a non-existent popular vote? Are you completely ignorant about American history? Each colony officially became a separate sovereign nation, by law, via 1783 under the Treaty of Paris. The Constitution, meanwhile, _then_ asserted the vote of each state’s franchised citizens as supreme law, _overruling_ their respective governments in order to form a new Union among the sovereign nation-states-- aka “We the People.” The DoI simply laid the groundwork for this historical precedent, via presenting the ideology of “government by consent of the governed;” and then the Constitution _asserted_ the citizen-voters as the supreme rulers of their respective nation-- not a select oligarchy as existed previously. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/308 "2017-11-29T19:16:35Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Are you completely ignorant about American history? Are you completely ignorant about American history? Are you completely ignorant about Constitutional Law? ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/309 "2017-11-29T19:18:56Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The declarations of secession from multiple states identified slavery as the primary caus _Causes_ of secession are irrelevant, for sovereign nation-states; since the _right_ is absolute and unconditional. And I’ve already explained that each state is a sovereign nation, by law. They were \*declared _as such in 1776, and this was made official in 1783. Even the mainstream legal academia now admits this, and tries to weasel out by claiming that the Constitution made them into a single nation-- but they fail, since it doesn’t do so EXPRESSLY, as even their_ cited precedent \* demonstrates… much to their chagrin. So what part of this do you NOT understand? ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/310 "2017-11-29T19:24:50Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’m still curious as to how SarahWitch is THE leading expert on American law. I mean, that’s a hell of a claim. I’d like to know at least part of that incredible resumé. > When is this true, and when it is not true? When the court says. They are their own power. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/311 "2017-11-29T19:25:18Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > The People of each state will once again consent to their government, by having the power to _overrule_ it by popular vote-- just like they did in 1787-9. The constitution was not ratified by “popular vote.” > [@](#): > > Thus currently, they do \*not \*consent to their government, which is thus a covert oligarchy. Voting for middlemen, and nothing more than that, is not consent; it’s an _ultimatum._ Voting is an indication of consent. The fact that we’re not currently up in arms in open revolt is also an indication of consent. And all parliaments/congresses/legislatures are “middlemen.” That’s kind of the definition. We don’t practice direct democracy. (Some small towns in Maine or Vermont, maybe…) There are problems with the system, but your extreme interpretations of state sovereignty are risible. No respectable political scientists hold such views; they aren’t taught in law schools; they only pop up on fringe web sites and badly-produced YouTube vids. (And open-discussion BBS fora.) ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/312 "2017-11-29T19:27:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What degree(s) in Law do have, and where did you get them? Normally I wouldn’t ask, but anyone who claims to be a “premier” expert in Law should expect to have such a lofty claim questioned, don’t you think? BWAHAHAHA you’re funny. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/313 "2017-11-29T19:27:21Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > When the court says. They are their own power. That bit about you being the premier expert on American law-Was that just your opinion, too? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/314 "2017-11-29T19:28:24Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > BWAHAHAHA you’re funny. You’re not. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/315 "2017-11-29T19:28:50Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > they aren’t taught in law schools; Oh, yeah? What about the law school **SarahWitch** graduated from? Hm? Answer _that_, smart guy! :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/316 "2017-11-29T19:35:46Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > What a ridiculous assertion you just made here. You seem oblivious to the fact that Britain was at war with its rebellious American colonies for 8 years Seven years, two months, three weeks, five days. > [@](#): > > , during which time they did not - of course - recognize the sovereignty of said colonies. Naturally, it was _contested_ by Great Britain, precluding official recognition until the dispute was settled. > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, France, Spain, and the Netherlands all recognized the independence of the Thirteen Colonies long before the Treaty of Paris was signed. Not _officially_ under international law. But they did after that, on September 30 of 1783, including Great Britain. > [@](#): > > And again, you completely ignore the significance of unorganized territory which was recognized internationally as US territory for years or decades before individual states were carved out of said territory. “US territory” simply means that the territory was held collectively by the individual nation-states, not by a SINGLE nation-state called “The US”; but once these nation-states recognized the territory as _new_] states, then they held the same status as the existing states, i.e. separate sovereign nation-states. Just like the Treaty of Paris made the colonies into new nation-states. What’s so difficult to understand about that? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/317 "2017-11-29T19:39:05Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > When the court says. They are their own power. Wow. The depth of your knowledge on American law is truly astounding. You’re saying courts can decide willy-nilly whenever they want that the Bill of Rights applies? If the courts says they don’t, then they don’t? There aren’t any, say, precedents in the law? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/318 "2017-11-29T19:39:37Z")
That fact that it didn’t, no matter how many times you repeat it without evidence? ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/319 "2017-11-29T19:40:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You’re not. That’s good, because like you I’m _not trying_ to be. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/320 "2017-11-29T19:42:35Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Not _officially_ under international law. > But they did after that, on September 30 of 1783, including Great Britain. The Treaty of Alliance don’t exist in your history? > **[Treaty of Alliance (1778)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Alliance_(1778))** > > The Treaty of Alliance (French: traité d'alliance (1778)), also known as the Franco-American Treaty, was a defensive alliance between the Kingdom of France and the United States formed amid the American Revolutionary War with Great Britain. It was signed by delegates of King Louis XVI and the Second Continental Congress in Paris on February 6, 1778, along with the Treaty of Amity and Commerce and a secret clause providing for the entry of other European allies; together these instruments are s [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097.md?page=17)