# Is there any legitimacy to the Sovereign Citizen argument? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097 "2017-05-07T22:25:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/341 "2017-11-29T21:06:59Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Not over sovereign nation-states. Which states seceded, then? As far as I know, the states that seceded were part of the United States. The case cited demonstrates that their secession violated the law. EDIT: > [@SarahWitch](#): > > and the Constitution is not a national document, whatever the Supreme Court may say. Then you should move to a different country. Because in _this_ country, the Constitution is the Law of the Land, and the Supreme Court decides what is and isn’t Constitutional. . ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/342 "2017-11-29T21:10:11Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Okay, so you’re saying it wasn’t a strawman fallacy, but an appeal to authority and popularity fallacy against the facts. > > I’m not seeing how it helps you. Wrong pieces still, back to the [del]game[/del] drawing table 🙂 Appeals to authority are fallacies only when they are pointing at experts in unrelated fields. And really, I still have to see the historians and teachers I looked at as being wildly popular, they are well known, but in the internet the sad reality is that ignorant sources (such as the ones supporting the confederacy and Sovereign Citizens) are more prevalent. So, a forfeit (as you refused to point at your “renown” sources) it is from your part. And you are bad at chess too. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/343 "2017-11-29T21:12:17Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Lost what? It’s a question of _law_. . . . They settled out of court. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/344 "2017-11-29T21:13:38Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Considering that every state _did_ secede from the Articles of Confederation, they definitely had it there. That doesn’t follow; I could punch a co-worker if I were so inclined, that doesn’t mean I have the _right_ to do so. The Articles specified that the union between the states was perpetual, which is to say, the states attempted to create a union that could not be unilaterally seceded from. > [@](#): > > As James Madison explained in Federalist No. 40: He’s not addressing precisely what I asked, but sure. > [@](#): > > Today, however, the legal community claims that the states _lost_ this right via the Constitution, claiming that it united them as a single nation-state; however as I mentioned, this argument fails because the Constitution does not do so EXPRESSLY. Can you cite this claim from the legal community? The idea of the US consisting sovereign states which delegate limited, enumerated powers to the federal government is quite mainstream. The concept is called “dual sovereignty”; states are sovereign except over matters in which that sovereignty has been delegated to the federal government. Furthermore, the Constitution could be legally dissolved in exactly the same way the Articles of Confederation were: via a constitutional convention. Returning to the question at hand: if you accept that states can “give away” portions of their sovereignty (for example, coining money), does it not follow that unilateral secession is also something that could be given up? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/345 "2017-11-29T21:15:36Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Not over sovereign nation-states; and the Constitution is not a national document, whatever the Supreme Court may say. Do you recognize the authority of the SCOTUS? ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/346 "2017-11-29T21:20:37Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The constitution was not ratified by “popular vote.” You need to learn history, before teaching it. It certainly was; the citizen-voters of each state voted in state conventions to overrule their government and establish the Constitution… or not; some didn’t at first, but did later. > [@](#): > > Voting is an indication of consent. > [@](#): > > Only if the voters have the power to overrule their government directly by popular vote. > [@](#): > > The fact that we’re not currently up in arms in open revolt is also an indication of consent. That’s just silly. > [@](#): > > And all parliaments/congresses/legislatures are “middlemen.” Which is why freedom requires true democracy, wherein the People have final authority _over_ them by popular vote-- not Totalitarian democracy, which is an oxymoron… again, like “Crony Capitalism,” which is the inevitable _result_ of Totalitarian Democracy. > [@](#): > > That’s kind of the definition. We don’t practice direct democracy. (Some small towns in Maine or Vermont, maybe…) Again, the _Constutitution_ was an act of direct democracy. It’s not a question of whether it’s practiced, but simply the _power_ to do so as final authority. \*There are problems with the system, but your extreme interpretations of state sovereignty are risible. \* I never mentioned anything about “state sovereignty.” I’m talking about the international sovereignty of sovereign nation-states, as exists by law. > [@](#): > > No respectable political scientists hold such views; they aren’t taught in law schools; they only pop up on fringe web sites and badly-produced YouTube vids. (And open-discussion BBS fora.) Now you’re appealing to authority and popularity, as well as ad hominem regarding what you consider “respectable.” But all you’ve stated are fallacies and falsehoods, so it’s par for the course. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/347 "2017-11-29T21:29:19Z")
Would you mind providing a link or two to cites that talk about the individual states of our country being sovereign nation-states? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/348 "2017-11-29T21:31:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Would you mind providing a link or two to cites that talk about the individual states of our country being sovereign nation-states? You expect too much. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/349 "2017-11-29T21:34:57Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Appeals to authority are fallacies only when they are pointing at experts in unrelated fields. Or against the facts, which you are, and thus _conceding_ the facts as I have stated them. > [@](#): > > And really, I still have to see the historians and teachers I looked at as being wildly popular, they are well known, Thus your appeal to popularity, as I mentioned. Thanks for admitting it. > [@](#): > > but in the internet the sad reality is that ignorant sources (such as the ones supporting the confederacy and Sovereign Citizens) are more prevalent. I already proved the Confederacy’s argument based on facts, and I expressly stated that the Sovereign Citizens were wrong. So the problem seems to be that you’re _illiterate._ \*So, a forfeit (as you refused to point at your “renown” sources) it is from your part. \* I already stated my sources in prior posts. But if you deny that each state is a sovereign nation-state by law, then you’ll have to explain your own sources, since I’m far more familiar with the laws and facts than you are; and they don’t say what you think they say. The Declaration of Independence declares each colony in the United Colonies to be a separate nation-state, unto itself-- it does not declare the UC a single nation-state, as Lincoln claimed. You may think that this is what they did-- or that it happened later; I’m not sure your particular derivation of national authority to the federal government, but regardless it’s 100% false, as I’ve proved: i.e. the Articles of Confederation expressly retained each state’s sovereignty, freedom and independence, while the 1783 Treaty of Paris expressly recognized them, and the Constitution never expressly \*altered \*them in any way. So wherever you’re deriving your argument that the USA is a single sovereign nation-state, it’s faulty; rather, each state remained a sovereign nation-state unto itself, under the final authority of its respective People. Charlatans often ignorantly construe federal authority over state governments, as evidencing single-nation status; however this naturally\* ignores\* the national authority of each state’s respective People, which is the body clearly named in the Constitution’s Preamble as the authority which declares and establishes the Constitution, and therefore is the sovereign power over the state in question. However, such charlatans also mistakenly conflate the phrase “The People” to refer to the Peoples of all the states collectively as a single aggregate; however this is also false, even for the obvious reason that there is no higher authority than a nation-state, which was the _status_ of the individual states. Ergo, each state is a separate sovereign nation-state, and its respective People-- i.e. citizen-voters-- is the final authority therein. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/350 "2017-11-29T21:48:21Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > “US territory” simply means that the territory was held collectively by the individual nation-states, not by a SINGLE nation-state called “The US”; [Wrong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territories_of_the_United_States) again: “Territories of the United States are sub-national administrative divisions directly overseen by the United States (U.S.) federal government. Unlike U.S. states and Indian tribes that have sovereignty alongside the federal government, only one territory has sovereignty. The territories are classified by whether they are “incorporated” (i.e., part of the U.S. proper) and whether they have an “organized” government through an Organic Act passed by the U.S. Congress.[2]” > [@](#): > > Just like the Treaty of Paris made the colonies into new nation-states. :dubious: I thought they already _were_ nation-states as ratified by their popular assemblies, in your formulation. By making reference to the Treaty of Paris (which is an agreement to recognize US sovereignty _only_ by the British crown, not any other sovereign nations), you undercut the basis for your own argument. > [@](#): > > What’s so difficult to understand about that? You are asserting mutually exclusive interpretations as the basis for your nonsense. Besides, as has been mentioned by many others in this thread already, the individual states partially gave up their sovereignty in order to form a national, federal government when they ratified the US Constitution. What’s so difficult to understand about that? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/351 "2017-11-29T21:48:25Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > I already stated my sources in prior posts. . Debunked already by others \*, and read it again, I did not said either that I made an argument of popularity. So you are not even wrong. (\* \*\*Fuji \*\*was just the last one who did so too in the previous post. ) ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/352 "2017-11-29T21:57:04Z")
“Legal” is overrated. Apartheid was legal. The Holocaust was legal. Slavery was legal. Colonialism was legal. Legality is a matter of power, not justice. It is much better to be right and good than than to be “Legal.” ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/353 "2017-11-29T22:02:20Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > . . . the citizen-voters of each state voted in state conventions to overrule their government and establish the Constitution… or not; some didn’t at first, but did later. . . . A state convention is not a “popular vote,” but a delegated vote. The people of various localities elected representatives to attend the conventions. I confess, I was ignorant, as I had thought the Constitution had been ratified by the legislatures of the various states, not by conventions. So, yes, I was wrong. But I was also right: the Constitution was not ratified by “popular vote.” ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/354 "2017-11-29T22:05:17Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > “He Who Knows And Knows That He Knows Is A Wise Man - Follow Him; > He Who Knows Not And Knows Not That He Knows Not Is A Fool - Shun Him” > ― Confucius, The Analects Well, I admit that you have shown that you know a great deal. However, others have shown that much of what you know is invalid or incorrect. _In true learning comes the realization of how vastly much more one does not know._ – me (or whoever originally said something like that, whom I have forgotten about) ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/355 "2017-11-29T22:05:20Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Debunked already by others \*, You’re addressing me. Not them. Try to keep up with you you’re talking to. > [@](#): > > I did not said either that I made an argument of popularity. Yes, you did. You just didn’t _admit_ it. You can run, but you can’t hide. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/356 "2017-11-29T22:08:11Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > A state convention is not a “popular vote,” but a delegated vote. The people of various localities elected representatives to attend the conventions. > > I confess, I was ignorant, as I had thought the Constitution had been ratified by the legislatures of the various states, not by conventions. So, yes, I was wrong. But I was also right: the Constitution was not ratified by “popular vote.” Confession is good for the soul; but you’re still ignorant. The question is whether you choose to _stay_ way when presented with the truth, since that by definition would make you a\* fool.\* A delegated popular vote is still a popular vote, since it _bypassed_ the legislature. The Conventions simply kept things organized. Likewise, the Constitution didn’t unite the states as a single nation-state-- which is the issue regarding secession, _regardless_ of how it was ratified. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/357 "2017-11-29T22:09:08Z")
SarahWitch, your argument does not account for the Subrogation of Sovergnity of 1781 via the Confederation Congress. How do you explain this? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/358 "2017-11-29T22:10:08Z")
I am still waiting for you to disclose your bona fides. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/359 "2017-11-29T22:11:04Z")
I should point out that **SarahWitch** has been posting the same, entirely incorrect stuff for _at least_ four years. She’s been given the same factual information that Dopers are posting here. It is unlikely that she will suddenly snap out of her delusions. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/360 "2017-11-29T22:13:38Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > “Legal” is overrated. > Apartheid was legal. The Holocaust was legal. Slavery was legal. Colonialism was legal. Legality is a matter of power, not justice. > > It is much better to be right and good than than to be “Legal.” Except that’s subjective, while the law is a bright line of universal concurrence when it’s made. So you’re saying that the states are not only sovereign nation-states by law, but that you don’t care. Good enough for me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097.md?page=19)