# Is there any legitimacy to the Sovereign Citizen argument? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097 "2017-05-07T22:25:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/361 "2017-11-29T22:13:39Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I should point out that **SarahWitch** has been posting the same, entirely incorrect stuff for _at least_ four years. She’s been given the same factual information that Dopers are posting here. It is unlikely that she will suddenly snap out of her delusions. But it’s wrong. All those people were wrong. She already said that. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/362 "2017-11-29T22:16:34Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Confession is good for the soul; but you’re still ignorant. The question is whether you choose to _stay_ way when presented with the truth, since that by definition would make you a\* fool.\* > A delegated popular vote is still a popular vote, since it _bypassed_ the legislature. The Conventions simply kept things organized. > Likewise, the Constitution didn’t unite the states as a single nation-state-- which is the issue regarding secession, _regardless_ of how it was ratified. Insults are not permitted. I am issuing a warning and returning SarahWitch to suspension pending review of his/her posting privileges. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/363 "2017-11-29T22:17:56Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > But it’s wrong. All those people were wrong. She already said that. My dad liked to say, ‘(S)He may not always be right, but (s)he’s _never_ wrong!’ ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/364 "2017-11-29T22:23:39Z")
What’s the tally now? A warning and two suspensions? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/365 "2017-11-29T22:26:13Z")
That’s enough of that sort of thing. Take it to the Pit if you must. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/366 "2017-11-29T22:27:53Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > That’s enough of that sort of thing. Take it to the Pit if you must. But, **Miller** locked that thread. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/367 "2017-11-29T22:43:18Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > “Legal” is overrated. > Apartheid was legal. The Holocaust was legal. Slavery was legal. Colonialism was legal. Legality is a matter of power, not justice. > > It is much better to be right and good than than to be “Legal.” Once something has been approved by the government, it is no longer immoral. [Cite](https://frinkiac.com/meme/S05E10/312161.jpg?b64lines=IE9OQ0UgU09NRVRISU5HIEhBUyBCRUVOCiBBUFBST1ZFRCBCWSBUSEUKIEdPVkVSTk1FTlQsIElUJ1MgTk8KIExPTkdFUiBJTU1PUkFMLg==). ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/368 "2017-11-29T23:04:54Z")
I see that Sarah keeps referring to “International law”. That is, the Treaty of Paris, ending the Revolutionary War, made the states independent sovereign nations as a matter of international law. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there was no international law back then (even now, it’s more of a concept than an enforceable thing). Don’t believe me? When the Brits decided to ignore that treaty in 1812, was there some sort of international tribunal to appeal to? Nope…we had a full on war. Sorry to break it to you, but there was no tribunal that “recognized” American sovereignty and an appeal to “international law” from the 18th century is as convincing as an appeal to the Intergalactic Star Council. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/369 "2017-11-29T23:16:00Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > You’re addressing me. Not them. Try to keep up with you you’re talking to. It does not work that way, others that know more of history do get more respect, not you. And I’m not addressing you only either. > [@SarahWitch](#): > > Yes, you did. You just didn’t _admit_ it. > You can run, but you can’t hide. Who said I’m running? The reality does remain that you did not touch my point that I do not see any support of your ideas were it counts, not from historians, not from teachers of history nor historians. All your previous points are clearly misinterpretations of what others did say. The recognized historians or academics supporting your point of view are indeed missing. And among generalists that is serous strike against you, a lack of teachable support. IOW, examples that show that even a significant number of academics do give the time of day to ideas like the ones you push. [http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article27527029.html](http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article27527029.html) > [@](#): > > “The consensus among professional historians, I mean historians who sit in universities across the United States, is that the Civil War, the main cause of it, was slavery, not an abstract notion of states’ rights,” Theresa Runstedtler, an associate history professor at American University in Washington. > > Still, it’s that very history that groups such as the United Daughters of the Confederacy and the Children of the Confederacy seek to downplay. The website of the groups’ South Carolina division, for example, states that its purpose is “to study and teach the truths of history (one of the most important of which is that the War Between the States was not a rebellion, nor was its underlying cause to sustain slavery).” > > Historians point to the document South Carolina issued when it seceded in 1860 to refute that claim. The document makes at least 18 references to slavery and cites protection of slavery as the reason for seceding. > > “An increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution,” the document reads. > > The equivalent document for Texas, called “A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union,” says: “We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.” > > Mark Potok, a senior fellow at the Southern Poverty Law Center who specializes in extremism, says the consequences of ignoring that history, and replacing it with an incorrect version, are enormous. > > “The consequences of white Southerners growing up with this mythology in their heads is that they do not understand racism,” he said. > **[Sovereign citizen](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen)** > > Sovereign citizens would accurately be described as the flat earthers of the legal world. They typically believe that there are two types of citizens: natural citizens and Fourteenth Amendment citizens. African Americans who hold sovereign... > [@](#): > > The problem with the sovereign citizen movement stems from its hypocritical stance that relies upon a very flawed understanding of how the law and citizenship within state societies work. In their case, rather than wholly obeying the law, sovereign citizens like to cherry pick the parts that they want to follow while simultaneously arguing that they’re exempt from being governed. > > By using documents of government law, whether local or federal, such as the United States Constitution, and using any part of it as a justification for being exempt from being governed, they’re in fact doing the opposite: they acknowledge the Constitution is a contract with validity. > > So whenever a sovereign citizen flings out the Constitution as a means to justify not being citizens, they’re in fact acknowledging that they actually are citizens. Talk about a paradox. > > If their misunderstanding of how citizenship within a state society works isn’t enough, many sovereign citizens still receive and redeem government checks as well as other forms of federal financial aid. In short: money that’s provided through taxes taken from other people which the sovereign citizens are opposed to. This is tacit admission (even if unintentional) that they are still subject to the government’s authority and don’t truly reject it.[9] > > Also, the term “sovereign citizen” itself hilariously reflects the oxymoron logic of the sovereign citizen movement. A quick look at the definition of the two words will show that it’s impossible to be both sovereign (self-governing) and a citizen (governed). Many in the movement realize this and call themselves “sovereign individuals” or mention their “sovereign rights” instead. However, they still don’t wholly reject the law and government authority enough. Thus they are not genuinely worthy of that title. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/370 "2017-11-29T23:37:16Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > . . . A delegated popular vote is still a popular vote, since it _bypassed_ the legislature. . . . Cite, please. I’d like a proper definition of “popular vote” that includes electing delegates to a convention. The plebiscite in Catalonia was a popular vote. The Initiatives in various U.S. states are popular votes. The selection of a party’s candidate at the party convention is not a “popular vote.” If I’m wrong, I’d really like a cite, because I think you’re the one who is wrong here. (If anyone else would like to help, I’d appreciate it. I would like to know the truth.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/371 "2017-11-30T02:17:29Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Are you completely ignorant about American history? Each colony officially became a separate sovereign nation, by law, via 1783 under the Treaty of Paris. I would note that, despite your implication that I am ignorant, the treaty to which you keep attempting to invoke notes in its preface that it is a treaty “between these two countries.” The enumeration of the various existing states (Article I) does nothing more than set forth that such locations/territories as Florida, Nova Scotia, Quebec, Jamaica, Tobago, and others are not included in the territory under discussion. The disputed land/territory/whatever of Vermont is not even mentioned in the treaty. Similarly, the description of the land involved (Article II) does nothing to set out the boundaries of each state, but only the outlying perimeter of the nation as a whole, so that Wisconsin, Southwestern Minnesota, Michigan, Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee, and the portions of Alabama and Mississippi not held by Spain or France are included in the United States, despite that country having no organized governments in those lands. Given that there were several Treaties of Paris, (signed simultaneously by separate countries), I am curious as to which one established thirteen separate sovereign nations, since the one signed by the U.S. and Britain does not even include the word sovereign in its text and I can find no reference to the United States in the separate treaties between Britain and (respectively) France, Spain, and the Netherlands. Could you indicate the precise language on which you base your odd claim? > [@SarahWitch](#): > > The Constitution, meanwhile, _then_ asserted the vote of each state’s franchised citizens as supreme law, _overruling_ their respective governments in order to form a new Union among the sovereign nation-states-- aka “We the People.” So, according to you, the states relinquished their sovereignty to the central government, but then they did not. > [@SarahWitch](#): > > The DoI simply laid the groundwork for this historical precedent, via presenting the ideology of “government by consent of the governed;” and then the Constitution _asserted_ the citizen-voters as the supreme rulers of their respective nation-- not a select oligarchy as existed previously. This shows great imagination, but has no basis in law (and only little in history. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/372 "2017-11-30T04:12:33Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > … The disputed land/territory/whatever of Vermont is not even mentioned in the treaty.… Vermont was originally part of New York state, up until some short while after the ratification of the Constitution. It seems likely that the AofC so preserved the rights of the individual states that the Vermonters were in no real position to make a break from New York until the Constitution provided them with the leeway to form their own state. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/373 "2017-11-30T04:28:00Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Vermont was originally part of New York state, up until some short while after the ratification of the Constitution. It seems likely that the AofC so preserved the rights of the individual states that the Vermonters were in no real position to make a break from New York until the Constitution provided them with the leeway to form their own state. Though on the ground, they were functioning as a de-facto republic during much of that period, mostly ignoring any NY attempts at enforcing authority and to the contrary, imposing upon parts of NH and MA. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/374 "2017-11-30T15:37:26Z")
We have our own Sov Cits here too. I watched a fly-on-the-wall cop show recently where the boys in blue stopped a van because it had a broken tail light. Now, under most circumstances, and with the correct attitude (grovelling is good :)) this would have merited a warning/slapped wrist. This guy started off by refusing to give them his name and whether the van was his. Cops then discover that the van is untaxed, uninsured and untested, so they arrest him. Uninsured cars/vans are taken to the pound and crushed if no one claims them. People who refuse to be identified end up in a cell. This guy actually had a driving licence in his pocket but refused to acknowledge that the name and photo was actually him. What happened if and when he got to court, I don’t know, but the movement which the barrister and law blogger Adam Wagner has called “quackery plain and simple” and says: “These ideas are most attractive to desperate, vulnerable people who are going through terrible times in their lives.” > [@](#): > > This from the left-wing newspaper The Guardian. > > The love freemen show for magic texts, incantations and ritual is not just funny: it shows a strange, childlike respect for the trappings of justice, and a commitment to jargon not even the stuffiest solicitor can match. This thinking is to law as crystal healing is to medicine and, like fake healing, it’s not as harmless as first appears. > > [The law is not the enemy of protest but an essential tool of impartiality | Carl Gardner | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/libertycentral/2011/nov/16/law-protest-occupy-freemen) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/375 "2017-11-30T15:50:36Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > … > Uninsured cars/vans are taken to the pound and crushed if no one claims them. > … We tend to think of the UK as genteel, and our Murrican ideas of “rough justice” as much more rough than just. But … I have to say the policy of crushing the cars of miscreants is totally awesome. Now all we need is something like an oversized garbage truck with a big forklift on the front. Double parked? Meter expired? In a no parking zone? Douche took two spaces for his pwecious pickup truck? Over the shoulder and into the bin you go. Crunnnnch!!! Next! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/376 "2017-11-30T16:57:37Z")
Still doesn’t match the French police for brutal efficiency: [Parisian, out on the town, leaves Porsche in no-parking zone. French police blow it up.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=814731) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/377 "2017-11-30T16:57:45Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Lost what? Uh… the war? Anyway, see you around. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/378 "2017-11-30T17:01:33Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Still doesn’t match the French police for brutal efficiency: > > [Parisian, out on the town, leaves Porsche in no-parking zone. French police blow it up.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=814731) “You have thirty minutes to move your smoldering debris.” ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/379 "2017-11-30T17:03:55Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > We have our own Sov Cits here too." Nutters know no geographical boundaries, including the UK. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0-Ldxdv1Wk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0-Ldxdv1Wk) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsgXWPRbKQE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsgXWPRbKQE) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFxJoOl8Oz0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFxJoOl8Oz0) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/380 "2017-11-30T17:15:06Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > “You have thirty minutes to move your smoldering debris.” The picture was disappointing. Just some wrinkles in the hood and probably frame and engine damage. I was expecting something _The Mythbusters_ (original) would leave behind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097.md?page=20)