# Is there any legitimacy to the Sovereign Citizen argument? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097 "2017-05-07T22:25:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/41 "2017-05-10T16:42:53Z")
I have seen that the [only way to refute their arguments is this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfVbiefMdNU) because as you can see from the conversation that led up to it, talking gets nowhere but babble. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/42 "2017-05-10T20:27:53Z")
> [@Shamozzle](#): > > Do Sovereign Citizens’ actually have any legal claims considered legitimate by anyone who isn’t even remotely insane? Yes they do, their claim that anyone can choose to not be bound by US & State laws they disagree with is absolutely correct. The problem is that the SCs don’t want to take the correct steps to do so i.e. move out of the US and give up their US citizenship. Or as far as Federal law is concerned, move to the Yellowstone section of Idaho. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/43 "2017-05-10T20:37:09Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > We make fun of sovereign citizens here a lot because they deserve to be made fun of, but there is an understandability to the psychology of it. People, I think, often feel very powerless and hopeless. I would posit it is more of the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Take for example the “gold fringe” argument. Under law Admiralty Courts have a gold-fringed flag. So the SC reasons thusly: Admiralty Courts have gold-fringed flags. This Court has a gold-fringed flag. Therefore this is an Admiralty Court? Anyone recognize this (very common) fallacy? Or the “Article IV traveler” argument. It may be an open-legal question in New York or Delaware as to it is still valid law. But there is no way whatsoever it could work in Ohio or New Mexico. Do you think any SCs would know the distinction? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/44 "2017-05-10T20:52:08Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I would posit it is more of the Dunning-Kruger Effect. > Take for example the “gold fringe” argument. That describes what they consider justification. But these people are just cranks. If their own beliefs work against them they’ll just ignore them and find new excuses to ignore the law. At least anarchists admit what they are. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/45 "2017-05-15T12:33:50Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I’ve had documents cross my desk explaining that the Statute of Westminster was _really_ an Act of the Admiralty courts, whereby the Corporation known as the “United Kingdom” abandoned its salvage claims to Her Majesty’s Ship Canada, and therefore anyone who wanted to could take a salvage claim on the abandoned ship Canada, forcing the Corporation known as the “Government of Canada Inc” to pay over gobs of money in gold sovereigns to the smart salvage operator. > > It’s cloud-cuckoo-land to the max. Do they actually believe that stuff, or is it like an epic in-joke? I mean, that’s crossing from “deluded” past “insane” and is heading towards “requiring involuntary commitment for extensive psychiatric treatment” otherwise, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/46 "2017-05-15T12:41:10Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Do they actually believe that stuff, or is it like an epic in-joke? I mean, that’s crossing from “deluded” past “insane” and is heading towards “requiring involuntary commitment for extensive psychiatric treatment” otherwise, IMHO. Personally, I think it’s a combination of idiotic things: they want it to be true, they don’t understand actual laws, they also don’t understand the SC nonsense and thus equate that to actual law, and their prejudices rule their thinking. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/47 "2017-05-15T14:17:25Z")
There is one thing they understand well: the concept of self-ownership. There is another thing they don’t understand at all: the government operates on brute force. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/48 "2017-05-15T14:54:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Subquoth **Kimera757’s** subquote - > > Any lack of legal success by the OPCA litigant is, of course, portrayed as a consequence of the customer’s failure to properly understand and apply the guru’s special knowledge. Weird - that’s exactly how to sell book on winning gambling systems … as long as the system is confusing and convoluted … then every time one walks out of the casino a loser (and one will), one can say “I did something wrong, the system is perfect but I screwed up somehow” > [@RickJay](#): > > [snip] … We make fun of sovereign citizens here a lot because they deserve to be made fun of, but there is an understandability to the psychology of it … [snap] The desperation of the poor living in a wealthy country … seeing the inequality of the enforcement of existing laws … this can be very frustrating and the SovCit ideology looks like an [del]easy[/del] lazy way out … SovCits didn’t just magically appear, there are real issues at hand and the SovCit is just the symptom … I’m I the only one bothered that when a poor ditch-digger commits two million felonies they spend the next forty million years in jail, whereas a Wells Fargo senior executive has to spend an afternoon apologizing to Congress, and an evening writing checks to the re-election campaigns and/or 535 separate acts of oral sex? For those of you paying 30% or more of your income in taxes … do you think it’s fair that I pay less than 10% on the exact same income? … there’s absolutely nothing secret about these unfair laws … ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/49 "2017-05-15T15:59:49Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > The desperation of the poor living in a wealthy country … seeing the inequality of the enforcement of existing laws … this can be very frustrating and the SovCit ideology looks like an [del]easy[/del] lazy way out … And they blame the government instead of the ones who are exploiting them and stealing from them, and vote these very robber barons into office, thinking that their oppressors are their heroes. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/50 "2017-05-15T23:42:32Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > And they blame the government instead of the ones who are exploiting them and stealing from them, and vote these very robber barons into office, thinking that their oppressors are their heroes. :smack: The idea there’s “magic phrases” which SovCits can utter that act as a “Get out of everything” card is what’s particularly amusing. “Well, we were going to throw you in jail for decades on account of all those unregistered automatic weapons and the shooting at the postman and the drug lab, but you correctly noted the gold fringe on the flag in the courtroom and further said that you weren’t John Smith since he was a legal fiction, so we’re going to have to let you go.” That’s about as realistic as waving a stick around, chanting “Denariius Infinitus!” and expecting to suddenly find yourself going for a swim Scrooge McDuck style in your very own Money Bin. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/51 "2017-05-16T01:06:11Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > There is one thing they understand well: the concept of self-ownership. > > There is another thing they don’t understand at all: the government operates on brute force. They have a lack of understanding that rivals your own. But likely doesn’t surpass it. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/52 "2017-05-16T01:42:39Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > They have a lack of understanding that rivals your own. But likely doesn’t surpass it. At least the sovereign citizens recognize the truth of self-ownership, which implies human dignity. Statists understand neither this concept nor the nature of the state, which makes their confused fairy tales far more tragic than those of the sovcit movement. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/53 "2017-05-16T02:11:05Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > At least the sovereign citizens recognize the truth of self-ownership, which implies human dignity. Statists understand neither this concept nor the nature of the state, which makes their confused fairy tales far more tragic than those of the sovcit movement. Correction: _Definitely_ doesn’t surpass it. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/54 "2017-05-16T04:08:33Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > They have a lack of understanding that rivals your own. But likely doesn’t surpass it. I don’t know - as fun as it might be to laugh drolly, I think he has a point in a way. Let’s be honest here - the reason the government works is because we all agree it should, and it has certain powers to ensure people play by the rules. Ultimately, if you step out of line in a bad way, people with guns/batons/tasers/mace are going to forcibly take you to jail. If you break too many laws and run up too many fines, the court is going to order your wages deducted or your stuff seized and sold to pay the fines. You can argue it’s illegitimate because HMS Canada/Australia/Wherever is operating under maritime law as unclaimed salvage or something, but it won’t change the fact everyone else has agreed you’ve been very naughty and have to go to jail or have your stuff sold - and have engaged the services of people authorised to take you to jail, keep you there, seize your stuff, sell it, or generally compel you to follow the laws like the rest of society. So in a way, the government _does_ work on brute force - just not in the primitive sense that comes to mind when one mentions the phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/55 "2017-05-16T06:58:26Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I don’t know - as fun as it might be to laugh drolly, I think he has a point in a way. > > Let’s be honest here - the reason the government works is because we all agree it should, and it has certain powers to ensure people play by the rules. > > Ultimately, if you step out of line in a bad way, people with guns/batons/tasers/mace are going to forcibly take you to jail. If you break too many laws and run up too many fines, the court is going to order your wages deducted or your stuff seized and sold to pay the fines. You can argue it’s illegitimate because HMS Canada/Australia/Wherever is operating under maritime law as unclaimed salvage or something, but it won’t change the fact everyone else has agreed you’ve been very naughty and have to go to jail or have your stuff sold - and have engaged the services of people authorised to take you to jail, keep you there, seize your stuff, sell it, or generally compel you to follow the laws like the rest of society. > > So in a way, the government _does_ work on brute force - just not in the primitive sense that comes to mind when one mentions the phrase. Sure, government works on brute force. All of life works on brute force. When a fox eats a rabbit was it because of the government? Was it because the rabbit wasn’t invoking its “self-ownership”? No, it was because the fox wanted to eat the rabbit and it was able to do it. Might may not make right but might does work. So how do you keep from getting eaten by somebody who’s bigger than you? You form a society that has rules that forbid unauthorized eating of its members. And society uses force when necessary to make people follow those rules. Government isn’t the mindless bully that anti-government theorists argue it is. It’s the mindful application of a controlled amount of force in order to prevent a much greater amount of mindless force. Nor is government the enemy of freedom those same people claim it is. Government is a tool people use to protect freedom. And, yes, protecting freedom is like protecting anything - you have to have at least a threat of force to back it up. But without some protection, freedom wouldn’t exist. Government is what creates the protection that allows libertarians and anarchists and objectivists and sovereign citizens to run around in safety as they argue that they don’t need any government. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/56 "2017-05-16T12:07:39Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Sure, government works on brute force. All of life works on brute force. When a fox eats a rabbit was it because of the government? Was it because the rabbit wasn’t invoking its “self-ownership”? No, it was because the fox wanted to eat the rabbit and it was able to do it. Might may not make right but might does work. > > So how do you keep from getting eaten by somebody who’s bigger than you? You form a society that has rules that forbid unauthorized eating of its members. And society uses force when necessary to make people follow those rules. > > Government isn’t the mindless bully that anti-government theorists argue it is. It’s the mindful application of a controlled amount of force in order to prevent a much greater amount of mindless force. > > Nor is government the enemy of freedom those same people claim it is. Government is a tool people use to protect freedom. And, yes, protecting freedom is like protecting anything - you have to have at least a threat of force to back it up. But without some protection, freedom wouldn’t exist. > > Government is what creates the protection that allows libertarians and anarchists and objectivists and sovereign citizens to run around in safety as they argue that they don’t need any government. I’d add the prior step that to prevent the disordered mutual eating of members, society creates _Law_. _Then_, in order to apply the Rule of Law, it creates government to enforce it. SC’s operate from a misconceived premise of what is Law, and therefore are beguiled by the preaching that no government is really legitimate and should not have any power over them. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/57 "2017-11-14T21:41:39Z")
Child molesting former Subway spokesman Jared Fogel has now decided he’s a sovereign citizen and so the government has to let him go now. > **[Jared Fogle Decides He's Sovereign Citizen, So He Gets Out Of Prison Now,...](https://www.wonkette.com/jared-fogle-decides-hes-sovereign-citizen-so-he-gets-out-of-prison-now-right)** > > Subway's Jared lost a lot of weight, gained a lot of prison time, and lost an appeal. These yo-yo diets can't be healthy. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/58 "2017-11-14T22:57:36Z")
While Sovereign Citizens are cranks, it seems to me that human history agrees in part with them. Used to be that if you thought your government was unjust, you could go somewhere where there wasn’t a government and rough it. If enough people moved there with you or came later, you’d form your own government. I’d argue that if climate change makes Antarctica habitable, people should be free to settle it. Same goes for other planets if we ever get that far, or just hanging out in a ship in space. Or a boat out on the water. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/59 "2017-11-14T23:10:59Z")
And how would people in this state of nature resolve disputes? I say our property line is here; you say it’s there. No court, no government, no judge, no police. We fight it out with knives? What happens if I steal some of your sheep. No police, remember? What are you going to do about it? Your sovereignty doesn’t automatically endow you with the power to enforce your rights. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/60 "2017-11-14T23:22:47Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > What happens if I steal some of your sheep. No police, remember? What are you going to do about it? Your sovereignty doesn’t automatically endow you with the power to enforce your rights. People don’t become sovereign citizens to protect their own rights, they do it so they can trample on the rights of others. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097.md?page=4)