# Is there any legitimacy to the Sovereign Citizen argument? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097 "2017-05-07T22:25:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/141 "2017-11-25T15:24:22Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > To begin with, SC’s are _mutually_ in error with the US government; since both err in their legal arguments. The US government claims to derive its authority from the Constitution and international law, while SC’s likewise claim that the US government holds no authority over them. > Both claims are false, since the supreme national authority in each state is the will of its respective People, as noted in the Constitution-- not as forming a single nation-state whose final authority rests with a republican government (since this would be not a democracy, but an oligarchy). > So only the CSA had the correct legal argument: i.e. that each state is a separate nation-state unto itself, but supremely ruled by its respective _People_ (i.e. its citizen-voters). After all, that’s how we got the Constitution in the first place; and they didn’t _alter_ that status. > So while SC’s are wrong, they’re not alone. There’s a fundamental difference. Saying “The states are supreme autority not the federal government” or saying “no form of government has the autority over the individual” are both well established political theories, and may have even been tried in practice (IIRC the former one was discussed quite vehementally in the US during the 1860s) Thats not what soveriegn citizens are saying at all, they are saying that by invocing set of secret laws an individual can magically invalidate the government’s authority over them. Thats not a serious political theory, it is a delusion. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/142 "2017-11-25T15:35:06Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > There’s a fundamental difference. Saying “The states are supreme autority not the federal government” or saying “no form of government has the autority over the individual” are both well established political theories, and may have even been tried in practice (IIRC the former one was discussed quite vehementally in the US during the 1860s) > > Thats not what soveriegn citizens are saying at all, they are saying that by invocing set of secret laws an individual can magically invalidate the government’s authority over them. Thats not a serious political theory, it is a delusion. No. No. No. I’m afraid that’s entirely incorrect. **SarahWitch** ,“_the premier expert on American law_”, has spoken on the matter quite conclusively. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/143 "2017-11-25T16:11:15Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > This is right down my street, since I’m the premier expert on American law, and where its legitimacy fails. Do you suppose I might trouble you for [del]some[/del] your credentials? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/144 "2017-11-25T16:47:15Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > This is right down my street, since I’m the premier expert on American law, and where its legitimacy fails. > … JFC, we have the \*\*\*premier expert \*\*\*on American Law on this board? I’m truly impressed. No, really, I’m impressed. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/145 "2017-11-25T16:49:11Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > JFC, we have the \*\*\*premier expert \*\*\*on American Law on this board? > > I’m truly impressed. > > No, really, I’m impressed. And she lives just down the street. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/146 "2017-11-25T16:58:20Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > JFC, we have the \*\*\*premier expert \*\*\*on American Law on this board? I don’t believe it for a minute. I mean, _premier expert on American law_ isn’t even in her sig! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/147 "2017-11-25T19:22:08Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > So only the CSA had the correct legal argument: i.e. that each state is a separate nation-state unto itself, but supremely ruled by its respective _People_ (i.e. its citizen-voters). After all, that’s how we got the Constitution in the first place; and they didn’t _alter_ that status. Except the Confederacy was more centralized than the United States at the time, and centralized faster. The Confederate draft happened before the US one, and courts in the Confederacy routinely ruled in favor of the national government when national and state rights clashed. You also might want to take a look at “Southern Rights: Political Prisoners and the Myth of Confederate Constitutionalism” by Mark Neely, about civil liberty violations in the Confederacy. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/148 "2017-11-25T20:01:39Z")
This is quibbling. The sole issue is national sovereignty of a individual nation-states, which the USA does not have over its member-states-- as the federal government _claims_. Nothing else matters. You’re confusing centralization, with _national sovereignty_– which the CSA states never ceded to the CSA Union, nor did did the CSA allege; indeed, that was the sole issue between the two Union, i.e. the USA claimed that the states formed a single nation-state, while the CSA states claimed they were always separate nation-states. That’s what it was ALL about. If the North admitted that the truth, that the states were sovereign nation-states, then there could have been no war; however charlatans fabricated many arguments to _deny_ this fact under color of law, from Jackson to Lincoln. Separate nation-states can form federal republics which can be as centralized as they _please_, without _forfeiting_ their status as separate nation-states; this can only be lost if they expressly _manifest_ such an act; and the American states never did that. That’s the confusion which plagues most people today, in claiming that USA’s common military, currency, whatever, _made_ the states into a single nation-state, by implication… when all that is pure _bunk_. It doesn’t work that way, for reasons I just stated. The Euro, the UN army, etc. did not make those nation-states into a _single_ nation-state-- but Hitler, Hussein and Hirohito \* claimed\* this in their various conquests, with the same legal validity as Lincoln-- i.e. none. Again, it can only happen by\* express action,\* since a nation-state is its own supreme ruler by law, in terms of _judging_ legal intent. Thus, nothing can be \*left \*to judgment in such a treaty which joins two or more nation-states as a single one. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/149 "2017-11-25T20:11:30Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Please provide verifiable cites to suport your assertion that you are “the premier expert on American law”. “Ye shall know me by my works.” ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/150 "2017-11-25T20:13:33Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I was extremely disappointed to learn there is _not_ a secret account worth hundreds of millions in my name. Have you checked the Bank of Nigeria? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/151 "2017-11-25T20:18:52Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > “Ye shall know me by my works.” Well. There it is. Proof. That’s good enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/152 "2017-11-25T20:19:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Sovereign Citizens want a simple answer to a complicated system. They want it so much, they demand one even when it doesn’t exist. So con men are willing to sell them a fake answer. That’s kind of a pot-kettle situation, since nobody dares mention the elephant in the room about the GOP takeover under Lincoln… so they blame the message not the messenger. Obviously they are trying to escape from an oppressive regime to which the People do not consent, even if they’re not able to see it; but neither are _you_, apparently. At least they’re not \*defending \*it, like you are, so they’ve got that in their favor. Disagreeing with someone who’s wrong, does not per se make you \*right. \*… e.g. Stalin v. Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/153 "2017-11-25T20:33:36Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > There’s a fundamental difference. Saying “The states are supreme autority not the federal government” or saying “no form of government has the autority over the individual” are both well established political theories, and may have even been tried in practice (IIRC the former one was discussed quite vehementally in the US during the 1860s) If that’s your understanding of how national sovereignty works, all further discussion is futile. Imperialism by brute force against lawful sovereign nation-states, by ruthless individuals falsely claiming national authority, is not “trying.” It’s just a common crime… as well as a war-crime and act of terror. > [@](#): > > Thats not what soveriegn citizens are saying at all As I already explained-- when _also_ explaining that your simply disagreeing with a bad argument, does not ergo _validate_ yours. You can _both_ be wrong. And are. > [@](#): > > they are saying that by invocing set of secret laws an individual can magically invalidate the government’s authority over them. Thats not a serious political theory, it is a delusion. Yes-- as is _your_ claim, that the USA has a secret set of laws that only the oligarchy can know, understand, interpret over the rest of us without our consent, thus validating that office’s holding final authority _over_ us against our will; and of the two, I fear _your_ delusion the more. FAR more. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/154 "2017-11-25T20:48:10Z")
Here’s the problem: Sovereign Citizens, like Marxists, seek to depart from democracy as currently defined; since just as Marx saw Crony Capitalism as free markets, so the Sovereign Citizens – like the Anarcho-Capitalists, see Totalitarian Democracy as true democracy, accepting the common false history that the USA is a democratic nation-- which fails to represent the People, since they do not _consent_ to it. However Marxists, SC’s, Ancappers and everyone else all make the same mistake: i.e. “they keep saying this word, but I think it does not mean what they think it means.” Democracy is \*not \* simply the privilege of electing for your supreme rulers, and capitalism is not spending money as said rulers allow. On the contrary, a free market requires a free state, which cannot exist when the People do not _consent_ to their government by holding final authority in their _own_ hands. As a result, libertarians, sovereign citizens, liberals, conservatives, communists, Marxists, socialists and everyone else engage the same fundamental flaw in ascribing to statism as the only valid form of government, and thus rejecting all government since statism is obviously unacceptable. However statism is the logical result of _any_ oligarchy-- and oligarchy in turn, is the logical result of the majority _not_ having final authority… which conclusively implies inequality, ergo, as (Rick&)Morty said, “slavery, just with more steps.” Fortunately, this misunderstanding can be cleared up with a simple recognition of the fact, that the Constitution was ratified by the PEOPLES-- i.e. the majority-vote-- of 13 separate sovereign nation-states; and they did _not_ unite as a single nation-state by doing so, but simply delegated powers to \*subordinates \*in office to act on their behalf. So we just need to back up to before the gorilla became the first GOP president, and go from there with the voters of each state being the supreme rulers thereof; and everything will be good to go, since democracy will be restored once and for all. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/155 "2017-11-25T20:55:14Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > “Ye shall know me by my works.” What are your works? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/156 "2017-11-25T20:59:48Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > This is quibbling. The sole issue is national sovereignty of a individual nation-states, which the USA does not have over its member-states-- as the federal government _claims_. Nothing else matters. > > You’re confusing centralization, with _national sovereignty_– which the CSA states never ceded to the CSA Union, nor did did the CSA allege; indeed, that was the sole issue between the two Union, i.e. the USA claimed that the states formed a single nation-state, while the CSA states claimed they were always separate nation-states. > > That’s what it was ALL about. If the North admitted that the truth, that the states were sovereign nation-states, then there could have been no war; however charlatans fabricated many arguments to _deny_ this fact under color of law, from Jackson to Lincoln. But when Georgia threatened to secede from the Confederacy, Davis would have sent troops in to stop them The sole issue between the USA and the CSA was whether slavery should be legal and be allowed to expand. Some of the most ardent secessionists were also the biggest supporters of _Dred Scott v Sanford_, which was the biggest legal attack on state sovereignty to that point. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/157 "2017-11-25T21:27:45Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > “Ye shall know me by my works.” I think you’re right about that. We’re currently discussing that in another forum. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/158 "2017-11-25T21:33:41Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > And she lives just down the street. Do not personalize arguments in this fashion. If you feel you must the BBQ Pit is right around the corner. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/159 "2017-11-25T21:53:34Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The sole issue between the USA and the CSA was whether slavery should be legal and be allowed to expand. You are saying the CSA states did _not_ claim each to be nationally sovereign? You are wholly misinformed. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097/160 "2017-11-25T21:59:04Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > What are your works? I see the reference went clear over your head. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-legitimacy-to-the-sovereign-citizen-argument/786097.md?page=9)