# Is there any likelihood of mass hari kari occuring in Japan? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 16, 2011, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-likelihood-of-mass-hari-kari-occuring-in-japan/574884 "2011-03-16T05:47:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-likelihood-of-mass-hari-kari-occuring-in-japan/574884/1 "2011-03-16T05:47:36Z")
I’ve stories of Japanese military officers committing hari kari towards the end of WWII. The dishonor and shame of losing a war was too much for them. Some mistakes have been reported in the design of the Nuclear Plants in Japan and in the response to the emergency. Is it likely they’ll be a lot of hari kari incidents occurring? I’m not trying to be insensitive. I simply wondering how modern Japanese will react to this unique situation. WWII wasn’t that long ago. There’s still many, many veterans from that war that recall finding victims of hari kari on the battlefields. A lot of Japanese refused to surrender and killed themselves to avoid dishonor. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-likelihood-of-mass-hari-kari-occuring-in-japan/574884/2 "2011-03-16T06:45:04Z")
I don’t think modern Japanese people commit seppuku anymore. There may be some suicides if it turns out that stupid mistakes led to avoidable deaths, I suppose. Japan does have a high suicide rate in general compared to the US. WWII was different because it involved the dishonor of surrendering to an enemy - admitting defeat on the battlefield. This isn’t the case with a natural disaster. Anyway Japan seems to have learned from its past mistakes (the Kobe earthquake) and it seems that the general consensus is praise for the way they’re dealing with the current crisis. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-likelihood-of-mass-hari-kari-occuring-in-japan/574884/3 "2011-03-16T06:49:03Z")
If you mean ritual disembowelment when you say hari kari, then I doubt it. If you mean plain old suicide then I really don’t know. I do recall there was a spate of suicides in 1989 when Hirohito died. Mostly old folks who thought of him as having saved Japan in the aftermath of WW2, according to an exchange student I knew at the time. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-likelihood-of-mass-hari-kari-occuring-in-japan/574884/4 "2011-03-16T07:28:21Z")
It’s _harakiri_ not ‘hari kari’. And no. All natural disasters with high loss of life cause a number of suicides, in all cultures, and Japan has a quite high rate anyway, so I don’t doubt there will be a lot of suicides. But probably not ritualised. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-likelihood-of-mass-hari-kari-occuring-in-japan/574884/5 "2011-03-16T11:27:34Z")
Absolutely zero. It’s actually called _seppuku_ in Japan and no one does it anymore. There were a few cases of _suppuku_ in WWII (almost all generals?), and none that I’m aware of on an actual battlefield. > [@](#): > > There’s still many, many veterans from that war that recall finding victims of hari kari on the battlefields. A lot of Japanese refused to surrender and killed themselves to avoid dishonor Please provide a cite for this nonsense after you define “many, many” as any more than People need to stop reading real life history to understand Japanese culture. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-likelihood-of-mass-hari-kari-occuring-in-japan/574884/6 "2011-03-16T12:02:59Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > There may be some suicides if it turns out that stupid mistakes led to avoidable deaths, I suppose. Given that the nuclear plant’s backup generators were disabled by an entirely predictable tsunami, this seems quite likely to me. This sort of suicide happened 25 years ago after a botched repair of [a Japan Airlines 747](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_123#Aftermath) led to a crash that killed nearly everyone aboard. Granted, this was an isolated incident, so may be not particularly indicative by itself of cultural norms. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-likelihood-of-mass-hari-kari-occuring-in-japan/574884/7 "2011-03-16T12:21:27Z")
Harry Caray died over a decade ago, and actor Harry Carey even longer ago. There was only one of each of them. So it seems unlikely > **[Harry Caray](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Caray)** > > Harry Christopher Caray (né Carabina; March 1, 1914 – February 18, 1998) was an American radio and television sportscaster. During his career he called the play-by-play for five Major League Baseball teams, beginning with 25 years of calling the games of the St. Louis Cardinals (with two of those years also spent calling games for the St. Louis Browns). After a year working for the Oakland Athletics and 11 years with the Chicago White Sox, Caray spent the last 16 years of his career as the anno... > **[Harry Carey (actor)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Carey_%28actor%29)** > > Henry DeWitt Carey II (January 16, 1878 – September 21, 1947) was an American actor and one of silent film's earliest superstars, usually cast as a Western hero. One of his best known performances is as the president of the United States Senate in the drama film Mr. Smith Goes to Washington (1939), for which he was nominated for the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor. He was the father of Harry Carey Jr., who was also a prominent actor. > Carey was born in the Bronx, New York, a son of Hen... And I don’t think Harry Carey Jr. is anywhere _near_ Japan [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry\_Carey,\_Jr](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Carey,_Jr). ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-likelihood-of-mass-hari-kari-occuring-in-japan/574884/8 "2011-03-16T13:17:39Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > If you mean ritual disembowelment when you say hari kari, then I doubt it. If you mean plain old suicide then I really don’t know. I do recall there was a spate of suicides in 1989 when Hirohito died. Mostly old folks who thought of him as having saved Japan in the aftermath of WW2, according to an exchange student I knew at the time. There were a few suicides. According to Japanese sources without cites, police gave a total of 10 suicides. I can’t find any reference to any of them being _seppuku_ and several sites, such as yahoo answers (hence of questionable reliability) specifically say they weren’t _seppuku_. I was in Japan at the time, and I do not recall any _seppuku_. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-likelihood-of-mass-hari-kari-occuring-in-japan/574884/9 "2011-03-16T13:25:08Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Given that the nuclear plant’s backup generators were disabled by an entirely predictable tsunami, this seems **quite likely** to me. > > This sort of suicide happened 25 years ago after a botched repair of [a Japan Airlines 747](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_123#Aftermath) led to a crash that killed nearly everyone aboard. Granted, this was an isolated incident, so may be not particularly indicative by itself of cultural norms. my bolding. It is impossible to state this with your level of certainty. I presume that you have little understanding modern Japan culture. I welcome any sort of cites which would support your position. It may happen, but it is not _quite likely_. Japanese do not commit suicide right or left to take responsibility for accidents. We really need to stop learning about foreign cultures from video games. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-likelihood-of-mass-hari-kari-occuring-in-japan/574884/10 "2011-03-16T13:39:55Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > my bolding. It is impossible to state this with your level of certainty. I presume that you have little understanding modern Japan culture. I welcome any sort of cites which would support your position. You’re right, my first sentence probably overstates the case. I withdraw my “quite likely” qualifier, and suggest instead “not unlikely.” You’re also right, I am not strongly educated about modern Japanese culture. However, my wife is Japanese; I’ll ask her what she thinks, though I recognize that hers would only be one opinion on the matter. > [@](#): > > It may happen, but it is not _quite likely_. Japanese do not commit suicide right or left to take responsibility for accidents. > > We really need to stop learning about foreign cultures from video games. I can’t recall playing any video games that portrayed Japanese people in any manner, let alone committing ritual suicide. At the time of my previous post, my only data point was the real-world case of the Japan Airlines maintenance manager who botched the 747 repair. However, since that time, I found [this reference](http://www.lancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(04)16066-2/fulltext) referring to “inseki-jisatsu”, or responsibility-driven suicide. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-likelihood-of-mass-hari-kari-occuring-in-japan/574884/11 "2011-03-16T15:08:37Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > You’re right, my first sentence probably overstates the case. I withdraw my “quite likely” qualifier, and suggest instead “not unlikely.” There is a world of difference between the two. However, define “not unlikely.” What percent chance would you say there is? 50%? 25%? 10%? 5%? 1%? 0.01% 0.001? Simply put, you are still overstating the case of it being “not unlikely.” “Conceivable,” “possible” would be words which fit into the statistical reality of modern Japan. Again, I fail to see how you state this with such certainty. Yes, it does happen, and with a higher frequency than with in the West, but you have no evidence to show how you are supporting your contention. > [@](#): > > You’re also right, I am not strongly educated about modern Japanese culture. However, my wife is Japanese; I’ll ask her what she thinks, though I recognize that hers would only be one opinion on the matter. Have her read this [discussion to you](http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1014577850). See comments such as “自分の会社の不祥事で会社が経営難に陥り自殺というのは理解できますね” “I cannot understand how someone would kill themselves if their company went bankrupt because something they did wrong.” > [@](#): > > At the time of my previous post, my only data point was the real-world case of the Japan Airlines maintenance manager who botched the 747 repair. However, since that time, I found [this reference](http://www.lancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(04)16066-2/fulltext) referring to “inseki-jisatsu”, or responsibility-driven suicide. Did you make it to the bottom of the the cite? > [@](#): > > Although the actual number of deaths from inseki-jisatsu might be small . . . So how do we get from “might be small” to “not unlikely?” Numbers could really support your argument. We are fighting ignorance on this board. Not propagating it. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-likelihood-of-mass-hari-kari-occuring-in-japan/574884/12 "2011-03-16T15:28:30Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > …but you have no evidence to show how you are supporting your contention. Speaking of contentious… :rolleyes: I’m at a loss to assign a hard number to the probability. Let’s just say if it happens, I won’t be shocked. Since this is GQ, and we’re supposed to provide factual answers to questions, the best we can do in this case: > [@aceplace57](#): > > Is there any likelihood of mass hari kari occuring in Japan? is to say yes, there is some likelihood, i.e. the probability is non-zero. > [@](#): > > Did you make it to the bottom of the the cite?So how do we get from “might be small” to “not unlikely?” Numbers could really support your argument. There are multiple reasons the number could be small. One of the big reasons I can think of is that bad decisions resulting in massive loss of life or other calamity are relatively rare. > [@](#): > > We are fighting ignorance on this board. Not propagating it. You seem intent on fighting _me_ rather than ignorance. Sorry for being such a source of irritation. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-likelihood-of-mass-hari-kari-occuring-in-japan/574884/13 "2011-03-16T17:28:04Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > There were a few suicides. According to Japanese sources without cites, police gave a total of 10 suicides. I can’t find any reference to any of them being _seppuku_ and several sites, such as yahoo answers (hence of questionable reliability) specifically say they weren’t _seppuku_. > > I was in Japan at the time, and I do not recall any _seppuku_. I didn’t suggest that they were seppuku. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-likelihood-of-mass-hari-kari-occuring-in-japan/574884/14 "2011-03-16T18:22:03Z")
So the OP is asking about ritual suicide (not sure if he understand that seppuku or harakiri is not just any garden variety of suicide but the specific [ritual](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku) of slicing into one’s own belly before being mercifully decapitated). The discussion seems to be about the more general concept of suicide-as-atonement, regardless of the method. This makes more sense anyway. I always thought that the modern equivalent had been resigning from one’s position in disgrace; but I am not an expert in these things. The OP also used the word “mass” in relation to these suicides. It seems unlikely that there could be more than a few people who could be considered responsible for these questionable decisions. Even if it was design by committee, how large could the committee have been? Hardly big enough to cover a word like “mass”. And would any single member of such a committee feel personally responsible enough to take this step? I think there wouldn’t even be any question of this kind of suicide as atonement, if not for the seriousness with which Japanese people regard nuclear contamination. If Japan is left with an area in Fukushima that is contaminated, heads will roll in some sense. I would be very surprised to hear of any actual atonement suicides, however. Roddy ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-likelihood-of-mass-hari-kari-occuring-in-japan/574884/15 "2011-03-16T19:03:08Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > I’m at a loss to assign a hard number to the probability. Let’s just say if it happens, I won’t be shocked. This is not surprisingly similar to what I would say. Yes, it does happen, but it is not “quite likely” or “not unlikely.” > [@](#): > > There are multiple reasons the number could be small. One of the big reasons I can think of is that bad decisions resulting in massive loss of life or other calamity are relatively rare. OK then, cite that there is a high percentage of _inseki-jisatsu_ when there are bad decisions resulting in massive loss of life or other calamities. One case does not make a rule. > [@](#): > > You seem intent on fighting _me_ rather than ignorance. Perhaps I should be less snarky when people perpetrate baseless stereotypes that Japanese are quick to kill themselves because it’s the _honorable_ thing to do. While this is pervasive, it still is not an excuse to proclaim that a person knows it will happen. And based on what knowledge of Japanese culture or sociology? For fighting ignorance, please see [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=595088) which we just did last month. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-likelihood-of-mass-hari-kari-occuring-in-japan/574884/16 "2011-03-16T19:27:43Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > I didn’t suggest that they were seppuku. I didn’t intent to imply that you were suggesting it. I was emphasizing the fact that even these suicides, are not seppuku. Those suicides were possibly related to something completely different, a concept called _junshi_ > [@](#): > > 殉死する 《形式》 immolate oneself at the funeral （of one’s lord ［master］）； 《形式》 follow （one’s lord ［master］） to the grave. In reality, it wasn’t since none of the people who did kill themselves were at the level where they knew the emperor personally. **Roderick Femm** is correct in that the modern equivalent is resigning to “take responsibility.” It’s still a meaningless gesture, but isn’t nearly as painful and the person then collects their massive retirement pay. What most people do not understand is that in its heyday seppuku was more often ordered than volunteered. People would get out of it by being “too sick;” they would then be confined to their homes until they could recover, in a sort of house arrest, which would take an amazingly long period of time. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-likelihood-of-mass-hari-kari-occuring-in-japan/574884/17 "2011-03-16T20:24:45Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > What most people do not understand is that in its heyday seppuku was more often ordered than volunteered. People would get out of it by being “too sick;” they would then be confined to their homes until they could recover, in a sort of house arrest, which would take an amazingly long period of time. You don’t read about that in the historical novels. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-likelihood-of-mass-hari-kari-occuring-in-japan/574884/18 "2011-03-16T20:56:48Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > You don’t read about that in the historical novels. Consider the movie \*\*Twilight Samuri \*\*if you’re interested in something a little more accurate than a Tom Cruise epic. I can’t remember where I heard it, but, IIRC, the decapitating blow to end your suffering after you’d opened your stomach wide and deep could come amazingly quickly, sometimes after you’d only started the smallest scratch. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-likelihood-of-mass-hari-kari-occuring-in-japan/574884/19 "2011-03-16T22:52:18Z")
Thank you for your replies. Sorry for the misspelling of hara-kiri. I’ve seen it so many times as hari and didn’t know it was wrong. > **[Definition of HARA-KIRI](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hara-kiri)** > > ritual suicide by disembowelment practiced by the Japanese samurai or formerly decreed by a court in lieu of the death penalty; suicide… See the full definition ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-likelihood-of-mass-hari-kari-occuring-in-japan/574884/20 "2011-03-17T01:53:34Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Thank you for your replies. > > Sorry for the misspelling of hara-kiri. I’ve seen it so many times as hari and didn’t know it was wrong. > [HARA-KIRI Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hara-kiri) I’m pretty sure most Japanese would say “seppuku” rather than “hara kiri.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-likelihood-of-mass-hari-kari-occuring-in-japan/574884.md?page=2)