# Is there any material superior to steel for making a sword blade? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 24, 2006, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785 "2006-03-24T21:48:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ins\_Outs\_What-have-yous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8797f3/32.png) [@Ins\_Outs\_What-have-yous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ins_Outs_What-have-yous)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785/21 "2006-03-25T19:25:12Z")
Materials science is a field fo study that fascinated me enough to choose it as my undergraduate major. > [@astro](#): > > Is there any high tech material that would do better than steel in a real…sword fight? If the cost of raw materials and cost to manufacture the sword are not an issue, then yes. You would want to maximize the specific strength (sometimes called ‘specific gravity’) and specific modulus of your sword blade. [specific strength = strength divided by density] In other words, the sword ideally would have high strength, high toughness, and low weight. A hi-tech composite material would be best suited in maximizing both tensile and compressive specific strengths/moduli. Hi-tech ceramics also have high specific strength, but they are too brittle. However, there are a wide array of composites available along with many different processing methods. No one has likely ever manufactured a sword using advanced composites; so, it would take an engineer a minimum of several weeks of research and testing to decide upon the best 1) reinforcement material, 2) matrix material, 3) orientation of reinforcing fibers, and 4) processing methods. Off the top of my head, I would recommend a double reinforment of continuous aligned carbon fibers and discontinuous carbon nanotubes in an epoxy resin matrix with fibers oriented along the sword’s long axis. Pultrusion might be a feasible processing method, though I’m not certain. Also, the blade edge could be made of diamond. Industrial saw blades are commonly diamond tipped so why not your sword? This is life or death here and money is no object, right? That would be one kick-ass sword…but it would cost a fortune. High tech composites\* are most commonly found in aircraft and (to a lesser extent) automobiles. Steel alloys are much preferred in many applications due to it’s cheaper cost. Though, the construction industry has caught on to composites in recent years. ArchitectChore, a soon to be graduate with a B.S. degree in materials engineering. \*-as opposed to low tech composites like steel reinforced concrete or even straw reinforced mud. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785/22 "2006-03-25T19:37:08Z")
On “exotic” carbon compounds: I didn’t consider buckminsterfullerine chains, which are noted for having an absurdly high tensile strength. However, I don’t know what their fracture properties are, or whether they could be cast into a strong, shear-resistant solid piece I don’t really know. If you wanted to be really silly, I suppose you could hypothesize some kind of long-chain [muon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muon)-bound elements which are likely to be extremely strongly bound relative to their electron-based chemistry counterparts, but since muons decay after a 2.2 microsecond lifespan, you’re left with having to cart around some kind of particle accelerator that will continuously create and siphon out muons to replunish those which are lost. If you could somehow create a stable muon…you’d win the Nobel Prize (or a few) for making tabletop fusion practical, and could therefore pay a massive staff of physicists, electrochemists, and metallurgists to figure out the minor niggling details of creating your superalloy while you relax with your bevy of former Playboy Playmates in your champaign-filled hot tub and have your head massaged while drinking Napoleon brandy from a platinum chalice. Science is so demanding. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Ins\_Outs\_What-have-yous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8797f3/32.png) [@Ins\_Outs\_What-have-yous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ins_Outs_What-have-yous)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785/23 "2006-03-25T19:39:15Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > Part of the problem with carbon fiber is that it is so stiff (compared to the binder matrix) that it tends to undergo fracture with any tensile or impact loading. That depends on the matrix material. Metal matrix materials (which you suggested) are worth considering as well as stiff thermoset polymer matrix mat’ls. You bring up a good point about impact resistance. A well chosen composite could hold up but, like I said in previous post, additional research and testing is necessary in final material selection. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785/24 "2006-03-25T19:56:29Z")
> [@ArchitectChore](#): > > Off the top of my head, I would recommend a double reinforment of continuous aligned carbon fibers and discontinuous carbon nanotubes in an epoxy resin matrix with fibers oriented along the sword’s long axis. Pultrusion might be a feasible processing method, though I’m not certain. > > Also, the blade edge could be made of diamond. Industrial saw blades are commonly diamond tipped so why not your sword? This is life or death here and money is no object, right? Saws are typically diamond-coated for their abrasive properties; I’m not sure you could make a good slicing edge out of that. There are synthetic cermaics that could be used, but again, they tend to be fracture prone. And you’d have to figure out how to bond your ceramic edge securely to the composite; embedding them in the resin matrix (with a different elastic modulus and flexure properties) may not be sufficiently secure to assure integrity. Also consider that your ceramic-carbon fiber sword is going to be considerably lighter than a steel one; you’d need to install ballast (maybe a tungsten core) to give it heft. In the end, I don’t know that it would really be superior to a steel sword. But it would make a hell of a graduate research project. I’d love to be at the dissertation. “Behold–Excalibur!” 😉 Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785/25 "2006-03-25T22:37:22Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > Saws are typically diamond-coated for their abrasive properties; I’m not sure you could make a good slicing edge out of that. There are synthetic cermaics that could be used, but again, they tend to be fracture prone. And you’d have to figure out how to bond your ceramic edge securely to the composite; embedding them in the resin matrix (with a different elastic modulus and flexure properties) may not be sufficiently secure to assure integrity. > > Also consider that your ceramic-carbon fiber sword is going to be considerably lighter than a steel one; you’d need to install ballast (maybe a tungsten core) to give it heft. In the end, I don’t know that it would really be superior to a steel sword. > > But it would make a hell of a graduate research project. I’d love to be at the dissertation. “Behold–Excalibur!” 😉 > > Stranger So build a rapier - thrusting weapon with a hellacious sharp point rather than a swinging weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785/26 "2006-03-25T23:17:20Z")
> [@Valgard](#): > > So build a rapier - thrusting weapon with a hellacious sharp point rather than a swinging weapon. You could build that with any number of materials; a reinforced-tip Teflon or carbon fiber rapier might be ideal for its light weight and flexibility. But we were speaking of sword blades, which generall speaks to a weapon with a slashing edge like a broadsword or katana. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785/27 "2006-03-25T23:38:29Z")
OK, so _Lord of the Rings_ references have been taken, but how about [Rearden Metal](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_in_Atlas_Shrugged#Rearden_Metal)? Or perhaps a [tooth of Shai-Hulud](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crysknives)? ---
**Author:** ![lskinner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@lskinner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lskinner)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785/28 "2006-03-26T04:26:56Z")
I spent some time in Okinawa in the '70s and became friendly with a master sword maker. One evening after a few drinks, he claimed to me that some of the sword makers in Japan had discovered a new “secret” alloy that included gold and copper and some exotic steps to form and temper the sword. He claimed that it was twice as strong as steel that it held a better edge etc. Somehow he challenged me to bring a regular steel sword to test and so I met him with a really high quality (and expensive) steel sword. After a little coaxing, I took a swing which he parried with his golden sword. My steel sword got cut in two like in some cheesy martial arts flick. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785/29 "2006-03-26T05:01:41Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > Why did I laugh so hard at this? You’d be surprised how rare it is to get an opportunity to make a carbon joke. Tungsten, though, just writes itself. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785/30 "2006-03-26T08:08:33Z")
> [@lskinner](#): > > …a new “secret” alloy that included gold and copper and some exotic steps to form and temper… Sounds like [mokume](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mokume-gane)-[gane](http://www.mokume-gane.com/Pages/Photos/S4.html). CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785/31 "2006-03-26T19:31:32Z")
> [@lskinner](#): > > I spent some time in Okinawa in the '70s and became friendly with a master sword maker. One evening after a few drinks, he claimed to me that some of the sword makers in Japan had discovered a new “secret” alloy that included gold and copper and some exotic steps to form and temper the sword. He claimed that it was twice as strong as steel that it held a better edge etc. > > Somehow he challenged me to bring a regular steel sword to test and so I met him with a really high quality (and expensive) steel sword. After a little coaxing, I took a swing which he parried with his golden sword. My steel sword got cut in two like in some cheesy martial arts flick. “Twice as strong as steel” is achievable, if we’re talking about the plain carbon steel used for making a traditional katana. A sword made from maraging steel for example could easily be twice as strong, just as tough, and with a harder edge. However, I’m a bit skeptical of a decent katana being cut in two. A overly hard, or wrongly heat-treated sword might _snap_ in two, but that’s about it. I’m also a bit skeptical about a gold-based alloy having those mechanical properties. Not sure how swordmakers who have always worked with steel would stumble upon such a thing, whereas jewellers who have always worked with gold remain ignorant of it. ---
**Author:** ![lskinner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@lskinner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lskinner)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785/32 "2006-03-26T19:43:00Z")
Yes I was skeptical too, which is how I ended up having a really nice expensive steel sword sliced in half like a stick of butter and ruined. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785/33 "2006-03-26T20:44:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Also consider that your ceramic-carbon fiber sword is going to be considerably lighter than a steel one; you’d need to install ballast (maybe a tungsten core) to give it heft. In the end, I don’t know that it would really be superior to a steel sword. Now, I’m no swordsman, but wouldn’a a lighter-weight sword with the same strength, toughness, etc. be considered an unambiguously good thing? The amount of work you can do with any sword is limited by your own muscles, but a lightweight sword could be moved more quickly to parry, attack, or whatever, and you’d get less tired using it. And carrying it, for that matter: A soldier’s gear is heavy, and any way to save weight is welcome. And if **lskinner** ’s secret alloy actually existed, it wouldn’t be a secret. Maybe the precise composition or technique might be unknown, but its very existance? Anyone who had such an alloy would be proclaiming it from the rooftops, that his swords (or whatever else might be made from such an alloy) were so much superior to everyone else’s. Doubly so if the new alloy involved gold, since gold has mystical significance in many peoples’ minds, and it’d justify the presumably absurdly high price the smith would be charging. ---
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785/34 "2006-03-26T21:31:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Now, I’m no swordsman, but wouldn’t a lighter-weight sword with the same strength, toughness, etc. be considered an unambiguously good thing? I think it depends on what it’s for. A machete for example won’t work as well if you make it too light. Although the ability to make a sword arbitrarily light, and/or locate the centre of gravity whereever you want along the blade, would undoubtedly be useful! With a bit of luck **Kinthalis** , who _is_ a swordsman, will be along shortly. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785/35 "2006-03-26T22:19:29Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Now, I’m no swordsman, but wouldn’a a lighter-weight sword with the same strength, toughness, etc. be considered an unambiguously good thing? The amount of work you can do with any sword is limited by your own muscles, but a lightweight sword could be moved more quickly to parry, attack, or whatever, and you’d get less tired using it. And carrying it, for that matter: A soldier’s gear is heavy, and any way to save weight is welcome. I’ve done a little bit of melee weapon training (though more with the bo and quarterstaff than sword) but while a stabbing weapon doesn’t need a lot of heft, a slashing and crushing weapon does, for both attack and parry. Consider this; when someone strikes a heavy broadsword, it adds its own linear and rotational inertia to the wielder’s strength, whereas a stiff, lightweight weapon is going to bear more stress upon the wielder’s hand and wrist. This is why hardwood staffs are preferred over bamboo for staff weapons. However, you have to take different styles in hand, too: a claymore doesn’t handle like a katana, and despite what you saw in _Highlander_, you wouldn’t go up against a greatsword with one the way Christopher Lambert did; given that large, heavy swords were made to be used by and against opponents wearing heavy armor, a skilled swordsman wielding a comparitavely lightweight katana against an unarmored opponent would have a substantial advantage of speed and agility. Rather than block and parry directly, the tact should be to dodge and slash/stab. So I guess the answer is that it depends upon your fighting style and protection of your opponent. A lightweight, low-heft sword isn’t going to be much good against a well-protected fighter (unless you can thrust in through some valunerabllity) but would have a quickness against a lightly armored foe. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785/36 "2006-03-26T22:27:33Z")
> [@Jpeg Jones](#): > > I’ve heard many judges are used to bringing titanium weaponry into their courtrooms. Is this true? Well duh! Those places are often infested with lawyers afterall. And there are some criminals too I guess. ---
**Author:** ![lskinner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@lskinner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lskinner)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785/37 "2006-03-26T22:56:33Z")
You can bet that I tried to convince that guy to market his sword concept but he refused while muttering something about secrecy and honor. Maybe he figured that his sword could be reverse engineered. ---
**Author:** ![LiveOnAPlane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@LiveOnAPlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LiveOnAPlane)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785/38 "2006-03-27T06:00:32Z")
Hmm…all this makes me wonder how good an edge iridium could take? Sure would be a heavy sword, though. ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785/39 "2006-03-27T14:57:14Z")
> [@Jpeg Jones](#): > > I’ve heard many judges are used to bringing titanium weaponry into their courtrooms. Is this true? Beats me. The guy told me he did it to show his boss that metal detectors weren’t going to stop weapons in the courtroom and that they needed armed bailiffs. We were discussing this shortly after that guy in Atlanta (?) took a gun off a deputy and escaped after shooting a bunch of people. He wanted to show his boss that you really couldn’t stop weapons from getting into the courtroom. For what it’s worth, Rob ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785/40 "2006-03-27T17:00:08Z")
First I’ll tackle some of the comments made thus far on the desirable qualities of a sword. Weight: Light is good, but you don’t want something that is so lacking in heft as to diminish the force of impact required to do proper cutting/thrusting/leveraging work. I think historical swords already pretty much hit the sweetspot on this. A two-handed medieval longsword weighs in at anywhere between 2.5 to 4 pounds and is well balanced (something just as important as heft). Making it any lighter is probably not a good idea. Strength: Swords need to be sharp, and stay sharp. They don’t need to be razor sharp however. A diamond, razor like edge will net you very little gains in terms of actual real-life performance in battle. Depending on the material this type of edge is also likely to be brittle and require constant and possibly extensive repair. Not a desirable quality on a sword. Toughness: A sword has got to flex, steel, when properly treated accomplishes this task superbly. A finly made medieval longsword is springy so as to deal with the stresses of combat, and yet stiff enough for proper cuts and thrusts. Steel really accomplishes all these things in a very good way, when properly treated. Some other comments: Medieval swords were not heavy, and they certainly weren’t made heavy because of armor. After seeing the preview, I realised the poster was talking about a Claymore from a particular movie, which is not a medieval sword, but a type of renaissance greatsword. I don’t know that a lighter weapon would have the advantage considering that a) it’s shorter, b) the claymore weighs more, but is still quick and agile enough to be used effectively (otherwise it would not have been used). Swords cannot cut through other swords. I don’t know what the poster who mentioned this experienced, but it was NOT a sword cutting through another sword. Perhaps a poorly made, or flawed sword snapping in half after a serious failure, I don’t know. But steel cannot cut through that thickness of steel at the forces we are talking about here “like a knife through butter”. I think we could possibly improve on the historical sword designs of the past, but unless some dream material arises from the science lab, the actual benefits in a real-life scenerio are likely to be very small. Not only that but it’s not like we have battles with swords anymore. In order to have a realistic improvement in this type of weaponry you’d have to get a modern smith knowledgeable in the intricasies of blade geometry, a decent swordsman (and they’re hard to come by in this day and age! 😉 ), and some smart scientists all working together, to design something that no longer has any military value and would probably be cheaper to make out of steel anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-material-superior-to-steel-for-making-a-sword-blade/349785.md?page=3)