# Is there any moral defense for eating meat in modern first-world countries? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2021, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637 "2021-01-15T23:19:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2021, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637/182 "2021-01-19T23:05:56Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > I’m not sure I follow. If we agree that animals can suffer, and if we agree that animals shouldn’t be made to suffer unnecessarily, then it follows that eating meat is a choice one is required to justify. Not at all If we agree that animals can suffer, and if we agree that animals shouldn’t be made to suffer unnecessarily, then it follows that having pets is a choice one is required to justify. But that is false also, as we have shown, with the possible exception of chickens, meat animals arent suffering. If we agree that animals can suffer, and if we agree that animals shouldn’t be made to suffer unnecessarily, then it follows that having a organization that looks after animal welfare is needed- and oddly there is one. The ASPCA which has some law enforcement powers in some areas but in any case there are governmental orgs, which handle this. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2021, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637/183 "2021-01-19T23:12:43Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Not that I’m a theist or anything, but isn’t this a little disingenuous? I’m pretty sure we can all guess which god they’re talking about I think you have incorrectly inferred **LSLGuy** ’s point. Asking “which God?” is not about feigning ignorance that on a webpage with primarily American users the likelihood is that “God” is referring to the Christian God. Which would not even be an argument anyway. The point is to remind **lorentat** that there’s more than one set of theological beliefs, even just considering theists. Since his argument rests on the premise that we know God exists and exactly what he wants. As you say in a later post, basing morality on a book can still be considered a valid morality (although of course in practice most people choose to interpret scripture in ways that conform to another standard of morality – they don’t literally get it all from the book). But in a discussion forum, it’s necessary to try to agree on premises on which an argument rests. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2021, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637/184 "2021-01-19T23:23:29Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I think you have incorrectly inferred **LSLGuy** ’s point. > > Asking “which God?” is not about feigning ignorance that on a webpage with primarily American users the likelihood is that “God” is referring to the Christian God. Which would not even be an argument anyway. > > The point is to remind **lorentat** that there’s more than one set of theological beliefs, even just considering theists. Since his argument rests on the premise that we know God exists and exactly what he wants. > > As you say in a later post, basing morality on a book can still be considered a valid morality (although of course in practice most people choose to interpret scripture in ways that conform to another standard of morality – they don’t literally get it all from the book). But in a discussion forum, it’s necessary to try to agree on premises on which an argument rests. I think **LSLGuy** ’s point was to punch **lorentat** in the throat for presenting a straightforward explanation for his meat morality that is based on God stuff, entirely because he is annoyed by christian God stuff. And while I, too, am annoyed by God stuff, I don’t think that was an appropriate way to react to a first time poster putting forth a perspective in a relatively innocuous way. Plus, this thread is actually asking for possible moral defenses, and **lorentat** ’s post answered that directly and properly. Sure, he didn’t present a fifty page proof for why he thinks his god/book/preacher is a superior moral foundation, but let’s be frank here - I haven’t provided a fifty page proof for my “Because I don’t care about animals?” post either - and what explanation I provided amounted to “Because I don’t think they’re people - and I don’t have to prove it.” So if I require **lorentat** to prove his religion is true to support his stance, where does that leave me? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2021, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637/185 "2021-01-19T23:40:40Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I think **LSLGuy** ’s point was to punch **lorentat** in the throat for presenting a straightforward explanation for his meat morality I just don’t see that level of hostlity in **LSLGuy** ’s post. Arguments get challenged here. It’s a discussion forum. > [@begbert2](#): > > I haven’t provided a fifty page proof for my “Because I don’t care about animals?” post either Well I would challenge _that_. If you came to my house to hang out, and when you arrive found me mutilating a live dog, you wouldn’t care at all? (Let’s put aside whether “my house” is in a country or state with explicit cruelty to animal laws). If so, I believe you, but I think you’re representing a tiny minority of people, not the set of all meat eaters. So that hardly works as a moral defence, unless you’re suggesting other meat eaters are wrong for being able to empathize with animals. You’re only defending your actions, not meat eating. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2021, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637/186 "2021-01-19T23:53:28Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Well I would challenge _that_ . If you came to my house to hang out, and when you arrive found me mutilating a live dog, you wouldn’t care at all? (Let’s put aside whether “my house” is in a country or state with explicit cruelty to animal laws). I’d think it was gross and messy and would question why you were doing it. (And why you were doing it while you were expecting me to come over, because I definitely wouldn’t come over uninvited.) A person’s motivations for mutilating an animal speak to that person’s personality, after all. I’d be less worried about your personality if you were, say, beheading a chicken to eat. (Though I’d still wonder why you waited for me to show up.) But in either case, it’s just an animal. > [@Mijin](#): > > If so, I believe you, but I think you’re representing a tiny minority of people, not the set of all meat eaters. So that hardly works as a moral defence, unless you’re suggesting other meat eaters are wrong for being able to empathize with animals. > You’re only defending your actions, not meat eating. As I mentioned above, **all** morality is personal. So yes, I’m defending meat eating, as well as literally anyone could. That said, I actually do think that most meat eaters are okay with eating meat because they _don’t_ care about the cows and chickens and pigs and fish that are being nobly sacrificed to their Happy Meal. They may not articulate it, but if they _actually_ cared about the cows and chickens and pigs and fish and such, the way they do their beloved doggies and kitties they consider their children, they probably wouldn’t eat their meat. So yeah, I think my reasoning actually _is_ why most meat eaters are cool with eating meat. Sure there are some people who raise pet chickens and pigs, name them “Lunchmeat”, and then after several months loving them happily give them the chop and enjoy them with barbecue sauce. But I suspect they’re the minority. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2021, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637/187 "2021-01-20T00:11:53Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > That said, I actually do think that most meat eaters are okay with eating meat because they _don’t_ care about the cows and chickens and pigs and fish that are being nobly sacrificed to their Happy Meal. They may not articulate it, but if they _actually_ cared about the cows and chickens and pigs and fish and such, the way they do their beloved doggies and kitties they consider their children, they probably wouldn’t eat their meat. > > So yeah, I think my reasoning actually _is_ why most meat eaters are cool with eating meat. Sure there are some people who raise pet chickens and pigs, name them “Lunchmeat”, and then after several months loving them happily give them the chop and enjoy them with barbecue sauce. But I suspect they’re the minor Agree completely that your first paragraph is how most people think. Your second paragraph sentiment is probably pretty common among rural dwellers, but is simply absent among city/suburban folks. FTR I’m totally a member of that latter group though on this specific topic I respect the former group’s views a lot more than my own / my in-group’s views. One of the reasons I term pets as “livestock” is precisely to lower dogs and cats to the care-about level of pigs and cows where they belong. IMO our collective mistake is not to undervalue our moral commitment to our livestock, but to overvalue the livestock we let live in our houses or poop on our bedspreads without consequence. Back in the day (100+ years ago) when most Americans raised, owned, and slaughtered their own critters, the cows & pigs had a higher place than now and the dogs and cats had a lesser place than now, more equal with that of the food critters. ISTM that was a more factually and morally accurate era. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2021, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637/188 "2021-01-20T00:23:15Z")
Why does in matter if I care about a cow more before or after it is slaughtered if it’s going to the same place eventually? It’s not like farmers raised cows and pigs 100 years ago for companionship the way we raise cats and dogs. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2021, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637/189 "2021-01-20T00:48:51Z")
I don’t get your point, particularly regarding your first sentence. Could you restate it? If your point is that we don’t care about cows and pigs because we, as a society, don’t care about cows and pigs, then I will join you in agreement about how we are okay with eating cows and pigs because we don’t care about cows and pigs. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2021, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637/190 "2021-01-20T00:53:19Z")
What I mean is did people ever “care” about cows and pigs as anything other than a source of meat? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2021, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637/191 "2021-01-20T01:07:18Z")
Well, some people apparently do - hence this conversation. (Are you trying to buttress up the defense of “not caring about cows” with “my grandpa also didn’t care about cows” or something? Because you don’t gotta sell _me_ on not caring about cows. I think that not caring about cows is awesome. You go ahead and not care about cows.) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2021, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637/192 "2021-01-20T01:19:36Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Well, some people apparently do - hence this conversation. I guess. But they are still raising them for meat, right? Is the argument that we city folk might be less inclined to dine at Peter Luger if we had to raise and care for the cows ourselves? I don’t think that’s inaccurate. I’d probably want to avoid developing an emotional bond with an animal I planned to eat. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2021, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637/193 "2021-01-20T01:19:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But that is false also, as we have _ **shown** _, with the possible exception of chickens, meat animals arent suffering. That word, I don’t not think it means what you think it means. I believe that the word you are looking for here is “claimed.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2021, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637/194 "2021-01-20T01:22:15Z")
Well, it’s several times more evidence than the other side, so yeah, shown. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2021, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637/195 "2021-01-20T01:24:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > with the possible exception of chickens, meat animals arent suffering. I threw out some instances of pigs being treated poorly. Raising pigs properly requires a LOT of extra effort at cleanliness. Too many people just throw 'em in a small pen, which fills with mud and muck. I’ve seen that a number of times, and deplore it. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2021, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637/196 "2021-01-20T01:52:42Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > As I mentioned above, **all** morality is personal. So yes, I’m defending meat eating, as well as literally anyone could. No, my point is that all morality is a personal **value judgement** , which is _not_ the same thing as only needing to justify your own actions. Saying you don’t care about animals works as a justification for you eating meat, but is not a justification of meat eating in general since many people clearly do care. Unless you wish to take the extra step of suggesting that they are wrong to care, then it’s not a moral defence of meat eating itself. > [@begbert2](#): > > That said, I actually do think that most meat eaters are okay with eating meat because they _don’t_ care about the cows and chickens and pigs and fish that are being nobly sacrificed to their Happy Meal. Firstly, I disagree. I think most people if they interacted the live animal, and then saw it get slaughtered, they would care. They might still be willing to eat the meat, but that’s not the same thing as saying they don’t care. A common story for people becoming vegetarians is just that they interacted with, say, a piglet, found that it was an intelligent and playful animal, similar to a puppy, and couldn’t bring themselves to eat animals any more. Secondly this is somewhat narrowing the original question. Most people, taken to a battery farm and shown all the practices, including like I say the forced moulting, hormone injections and explained things like how many of the animals don’t see daylight, maybe never even get a chance to turn around etc etc would absolutely care. It’s not only about the death. Finally, of course we’re talking about defending meat eating in the abstract, and most people don’t care about X is besides the point. Most people may not care about a genocide happening in a country they’ve never heard of. That’s not a defence of why it’s ok. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2021, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637/197 "2021-01-20T01:55:54Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I think most people if they interacted the live animal, and then saw it get slaughtered, they would care. They might still be willing to eat the meat, but that’s not the same thing as saying they don’t care. It’s a fairly long-standing tradition in 4H circles: a kid raises an animal, wins blue ribbons at the fair, sees the animal auctioned off for meat, and weeps a little…but does not regret what has happened. This is why hunter-gatherers often have rituals to propitiate the spirits of prey animals. We care…but we kill anyway. It’s complicated. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2021, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637/199 "2021-01-20T02:39:17Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > What I mean is did people ever “care” about cows and pigs as anything other than a source of meat?~ Yep. I took my kids to county fairs, where they petted the cows and sheep and marveled at the beautiful breeds of chicken. One of my kids is vegetarian today, the other is an omnivore but is involved in animal humane work. ETA: yet I’m a carnivore who could convert to vegetarianism tomorrow on a bet. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2021, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637/200 "2021-01-20T03:08:28Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > > [@msmith537](#): > > > > What I mean is did people ever “care” about cows and pigs as anything other than a source of meat?~ > > Yep. I took my kids to county fairs, where they petted the cows and sheep and marveled at the beautiful breeds of chicken. Fair enough. Our kids enjoy seeing the cows and sheep and pigs when we take them to the Bronx Zoo or the various farms near my wife’s parent’s house. And I have a cousin raising chickens out in Brooklyn (which I find a bit odd, but whatever). ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2021, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637/201 "2021-01-20T05:27:32Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > No, my point is that all morality is a personal **value judgement** , which is _not_ the same thing as only needing to justify your own actions. > > Saying you don’t care about animals works as a justification for you eating meat, but is not a justification of meat eating in general since many people clearly do care. Unless you wish to take the extra step of suggesting that they are wrong to care, then it’s not a moral defence of meat eating itself. There is no such thing as objective morality. If objective morality is required to justify a moral decision, then no moral judgement can be made. In which case it would be neither moral or immoral to eat meat; it would be value neutral. By attempting to dismiss my morals, you dismiss your own. > [@Mijin](#): > > Firstly, I disagree. I think most people if they interacted the live animal, and then saw it get slaughtered, they would care. They might still be willing to eat the meat, but that’s not the same thing as saying they don’t care. You as much as say yourself - those who haven’t petted an animal and watched it die _are_ able to not care. So yeah - what you’re saying is exactly the same thing as saying they don’t care. Let’s take a completely random example: me. I don’t care if cows die to provide me with beef jerky. Now, suppose you kidnapped me, forced me to interact with a cow (which I would hate every single minute of), then brainwashed me not to hate spending time with the cow, and then killed the cow in front of me and made it into a hamburger. Would I then have been changed into a person who cared about all cows everywhere? Well, maybe. The experience could have changed me. (Or maybe the brainwashing could have.) I can’t speak for how new-me would see the situation. Perhaps I would find a different moral framework justifying hamburgers. Perhaps I wouldn’t. Who knows? Of course, since none of that has happened, I still don’t care about cows. What theoretical future post-torture/post-brainwashing me might think is not my problem. ---
**Author:** ![CoconutPete](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coconutpete/32/5294_2.png) [@CoconutPete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoconutPete)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2021, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637/202 "2021-01-20T05:51:59Z")
I know this was addressed to another poster, but just wanted to say I agree with what you have said here. I tend to find these kinds of threads sort of silly if you deconstruct the question enough. There is no such thing as objective morality, you can’t prove that something is inherently right or wrong. You could argue maybe something from a utilitarian perspective about keeping a functioning society and all that. Of course then you assume your audience has a favorable view of society which isn’t always the case. In any event nobody is 100% utilitarian and we all have hedonistic tendencies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-defense-for-eating-meat-in-modern-first-world-countries/930637.md?page=11)