I don’t feel this is true. There are plenty of animals that show no signs of minding living in captivity. Do you feel that dogs or horses, for example, resent living in captivity?
Keep in mind the animals we raise for meat are also domesticated; we’re not capturing wild animals.
The ogre philosopher Gnerdel believed it was the goal in life to be as high on the food chain as possible. She refused to eat vegetarians, preferring to feed only on those who ate other sapient beings.
Ever see dogs leaning on their leash? Tales of dogs/horses bolting whenever the gate is left open?
Dogs are heirarchy loving pack animals. Yes, they mostly like hanging out with us. However, if they actually got a vote it wouldn’t be for leash laws.
And I’m sure I could show you some well run prisons where the inmates apparently have no problem living in captivity.
I don’t know where you were trying to go with this.
Some inmates are happy in prison so … some cows are equally happy in feed lots? Isn’t that the opposite of the point you were trying to prove?
Or were you suggesting prisons are like feed lots? There’s the obvious reality that we don’t eat prisoners. And in the larger economic sense, prisons are the opposite of feed lots. People run feed lots in order to make a profit. Prisons are more like an overhead cost society pays to reduce crime.
Or were you comparing the unhappiness of inmates with the supposed unhappiness of cows? Because, again, you’re projecting human feelings on to animals without evidence. I’ve worked in both prisons and farms. I’ve seen cows and inmates. So I can personally verify that the cows showed no signs of being unhappy the way the inmates did.
I took out the feeding lots bit because it was just a lame inflammatory zinger. I apologize that I even momentarily put that in there because it doesn’t connect to what you were asking me about. Sorry.
But where I was going with the prison thing was that humans can be trained to accept captivity just as well as animals. No projection of “human values” required.
It’s impossible to logically argue what is moral or not without some set of statements accepted as given. The big problem is different people have different sets of fundamental statements that they deduce moral positions from. Quite often these sets are absolutely irreconcilable.
But would you agree that not everything is a moral issue? My argument in that post was that it’s not always a divide between right or wrong. In many cases, an act has no moral value; it’s neither right nor wrong. So before you can argue the morality of an act, you have to demonstrate that morality is applicable to the act.
Relevant to this particular topic, several people have agreed that morality doesn’t apply to carnivorous animals. Lions and sharks can kill and eat other animals without their actions being immoral. So we’ve conceded the point that meat eating is not inherently a moral issue. That means we need to show that humans are an exception to this and that meat eating is a moral issue for us despite that not being true for other animals.
Really, just about any act has a moral dimension. Does it benefit or harm anyone? Does it take away or give to, anyone? Does it make the world better, or worse? Someone who begins by believing that animals have rights/interests/value may come to a different conclusion than one who believes animals can be treated legitimately as property.
No one favors cruelty to animals; that’s clearly understood to be immoral, by a nearly unanimous consensus.
I, in turn, apologize for responding to something that you had removed from your post. I didn’t see that when I responded.
Look, have you ever lived on a farm? I have. Have you fed cows, milked them, herded them? And I have visited feedlots. Herd prey animals are quite happy when there is plenty of food & water( feedlots have plenty of food & water) kept out of freezing or blazing weather (ditto feedlots) are healthy (farms and feedlots have vets) and arent terrorized by carnivores. Farms and feedlots arent cruel and there is no suffering- even their death is quick and painless. Of sure, there are badly run places where the animals arent treated as well, but those are the exception, not the rule. PETA lies their fucking ass off.
Yes, especially if we have to keep feeding all the food animals until they die of natural causes and rot.
Toxylon points out the issues with a Vegan diet better than i did.
Warning for FigNorton, 2 weeks ago you were warned for insulting posters.
Do you think this sentence is OK?
re freedom, I grew up with cattle, and I know 'em reasonable well. DrDeth is quite right; they take perfectly well to being fenced in, if the pasture/field/lot is largeish. They like to move around, but they do not have the concept of “freedom.” I’ve known bulls who got out through gaps in the fence…and took quietly to grazing in the high grass just the other side of the fence. They do not high-tail it for Utah.
(I’ve known cattle that broke in to fenced areas! And the San Diego Zoo Safari Park has a long-standing problem with deer the leap the fence, coming in to the park, because there’s food.)
Done all of those things. Did you actually read my post above? I went to an agricultural high school for six years. We literally had our own dairy herd, and part of my duties as a boarding student was to help with the milking procedure a couple of weeks per term. We had pigs, and horses, and bees, and sheep and goats and battery cages full of laying hens, all on a 300-acre property that was part of the school.
I also had plenty of friends who lived on farms, and I spent time during the summers on their properties, often helping with farm chores. I’ve milked cows (by hand, and using machines); I’ve herded sheep and cattle, on foot and on motorbikes; I’ve helped with shearing (although I’ve never shorn a sheep, as that’s a specialized task); I’ve participated in lamb-marking and cattle dehorning; I’ve removed the testicles from a male goat with a knife, and I’ve chopped the head off a chicken with an axe. I’ve walked up and down the rows of a cotton field in 100-degree summer heat, using a hoe to remove weeds and thistles.
Not a single thing I’ve said, and not a single one of my beliefs about factory farms, comes from PETA.
“beliefs”, and beef cattle are not in factory farms, they are grazed then fattened in a feedlot.
Odd that you have done all that and dont know this.
Chickens may be in factory farms.
I disagree. I think we feel moral issues are common because that’s where we focus our debates on morality. When we’re talking about morality, we ignore the much larger number of acts that fall outside its purview.
To use the example I gave earlier, do you really feel there a moral debate over whether or not you wear a hat? Or what color shirt you wear? Or what brand of toothpaste you use? Or whether you shower in the morning or at night? Or whether you have vanilla or chocolate ice cream for desert? These are all examples of the hundreds of acts a person makes in the typical day which have no moral value.
Wearing a MAGA hat, yes. Many toothpastes add SLS for extra foam but no dental benefit, and that SLS can cause nasty mouth sores, so yes. Some places ask you not to shower during peak energy usage, so yes. Chocolate has a whole 'ethically farmed" issue going so very much yes.
However, in the desert it is likely OK if you are too hot. 
Sure, nitpick the terminology. You’re just arguing disingenuously now.
As you well know, “beliefs” is often a useful shorthand for “positions based on experience, information, and analysis.” I believe, for example, that slavery was the main factor in the causes and origins of the American Civil war. This “belief” is not like a belief in fairies; it is rooted in years of reading, studying, teaching, and experience. You knew exactly what I meant, and chose willfully to misinterpret it in a way that avoided the actual issues.
I’m also well aware of what a feedlot is, and how beef cattle are fattened. And factory farming is sometimes used to describe particular industrialized types of meat production, of which feedlots are a part. And if you want to nitpick terminology, in plenty of feedlots, there is no grazing at all, at least as the term was originally understood. When cattle are put out to graze, it generally means that they’re let loose in fields of pasture. If they’re standing in massive pens eating from troughs, or from feed that’s thrown on the bare ground, I’m not sure it’s fair to call that grazing. But whatever, it’s not really relevant to the actual debate, as you well know.
You asked me if I had any experience of farming, and claimed farming experience for yourself, as if this were relevant to the discussion. Then, after I listed my farming experience for you, you apparently drop the issue of experience as irrelevant. This, along with your disingenuous terminological nitpicking, has led me to conclude that you are not arguing in good faith. and that it’s not worth debating this with you any further.
No, in feedlots cattle dont graze much. They eat from troughs, generally. However, and to be very clear on this, there is no suffering. The cattle are quite content, if not happy.
So, please give me the “positions based on experience, information, and analysis” that cattle are suffering in feedlots. That’s the whole point here, that ALL the animals we eat are always suffering in their environment. On our farm, the only animals that were suffering were sick or injured ones who were either given vet care pur put out of their misery fast. Did you let your animals suffer?
Mind you, I have never been in a chicken factory farm. I have heard those 'range" from clean happy places for cluckers to clean but not at all happy places for birds. Are they suffering? I dont know, in my experience a chicken is only slightly smarter than a bug, but YMMV. Maybe factory chickens are suffering. But cattle in feedlots are not suffering. Sheep out grazing are not suffering. Pigs are happy in their pens. “Happy as a pig in shit”. And not all chickens are raised in factory farms.
Like I said, your lack of good faith debating means I’m not going to discuss this with you further, except to note that I have never–not even once–said that “ALL the animals we eat are always suffering in their environment.” This is just another misrepresentation. But I’m sure it’s completely accidental. 