# Is There Any Moral Rule That Is Universal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2018, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-rule-that-is-universal/812731 "2018-04-19T20:21:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-rule-that-is-universal/812731/1 "2018-04-19T20:21:54Z")
Moral relativists certainly don’t think so. But is there any moral rule that is universal, I.e., found in every culture? I myself like to think there are certain broad principles like mercy and kindness that are. Although some cultures certainly show it more than others. In Muslim countries, they’ll chop off your hand for stealing an apple. But the Koran still says Allah is merciful. Ancient Rome thought mercy was a form of weakness. But they also produced a treatise on mercy called _De Clementia_ (“concerning mercy”). At this point, I want to make clear why I post this in GQ. I want this to be a purely \*\*\*factual \*\*\* question and debate. Yeah, I did read once incest laws are pretty universal, which is interesting. It seems the human brain has a built-in disgust for the matter. This is no doubt due to the inherent danger of inbreeding, due to all the recessive genes for diseases. But even this may not be universal. Egyptian pharaohs sometimes married their sisters, I think. But for the purpose of this question, I will allow “_ **near** _ universal” too. Thank you in advance to all who reply:) ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-rule-that-is-universal/812731/2 "2018-04-19T20:39:45Z")
Are we distinguishing or not distinguishing between a person’s internal system of morality and a set of rules imposed on a group? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-rule-that-is-universal/812731/3 "2018-04-19T20:47:00Z")
There are a few, known as [cultural universals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_universal), but most things on that list aren’t moral rules. Some examples of ones which are, from Donald Brown, in his book _Human Universals_ (1991): > [@](#): > > Incest prevention or avoidance, incest between mother and son unthinkable or tabooed > > Generosity admired, gift giving > > Promise/oath [by which I suppose they mean the general idea that it’s good to _keep_ one’s promises] ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-rule-that-is-universal/812731/4 "2018-04-19T20:53:45Z")
The Golden Rule from the New Testimate (Do unto others as you would have other do unto you) would basically translate into respecting others as you would want to be respected. Being respected (and giving respect)is pretty much a basis for civilized moral behavior everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-rule-that-is-universal/812731/5 "2018-04-19T20:58:51Z")
Reciprocity? “You helped me, so I’ll help you.” Even chimpanzees have it; if a chimp _doesn’t_ return a favor the rebuffed chimp will become enraged. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-rule-that-is-universal/812731/6 "2018-04-19T21:54:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Reciprocity? “You helped me, so I’ll help you.” **Even chimpanzees have it** ; if a chimp _doesn’t_ return a favor the rebuffed chimp will become enraged. According to Dawkins, even _bats_. It lays deep down in our selfish/cooperative genes! ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-rule-that-is-universal/812731/7 "2018-04-19T21:57:06Z")
I wonder about the following: -Murder - It happens everywhere, but is there any culture that condones it? -Justice - Perhaps this is an extension on reciprocity in a sense, but I would venture that all societies have a form of justice. We (let’s say “we” is readers of the The Dope) might not agree with it, but the group recognizes it. Danegild, or corporal punishment, or imprisonment, or indentured servitude, whatever it might be - there’s a form of restitution to the wronged either as individuals or as the group. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-rule-that-is-universal/812731/8 "2018-04-19T22:03:56Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > At this point, I want to make clear why I post this in GQ. I want this to be a purely \*\*\*factual \*\*\* question and debate. Sorry, but questions about morality don’t really lend themselves to factual discussion, and since you state you are interested in debate, this is better suited to Great Debates. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-rule-that-is-universal/812731/9 "2018-04-19T22:07:16Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > I wonder about the following: > \*\* > -Murder - It happens everywhere, but is there any culture that condones it?\*\* > -Justice - Perhaps this is an extension on reciprocity in a sense, but I would venture that all societies have a form of justice. We (let’s say “we” is readers of the The Dope) might not agree with it, but the group recognizes it. Danegild, or corporal punishment, or imprisonment, or indentured servitude, whatever it might be - there’s a form of restitution to the wronged either as individuals or as the group. Define “murder”. For any definition you could work out, I trust there are thousands of us who could construct a case where the majority of the society would (emotionally, not necessarily legally!) condone it. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-rule-that-is-universal/812731/10 "2018-04-19T22:13:02Z")
Not sure if its a moral rule as such, but I would think [i.e. based on no facts] that most cultures would recognise that children, especially the very young are not capable of informed intent and capacity to take responsibility for their actions. In other words any breach of laws or cultural norms by a kid would be judged differently to an adult’s breach. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-rule-that-is-universal/812731/11 "2018-04-19T22:35:56Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > The Golden Rule from the New Testimate (Do unto others as you would have other do unto you) would basically translate into respecting others as you would want to be respected. Being respected (and giving respect)is pretty much a basis for civilized moral behavior everywhere. Except in places where war is seen as an option, and except in places where you can legally be killed as the punishment for a crime, and except in places where respect can possibly be earned instead of it being something you have just for existing… So… Yeah… Umm… ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-rule-that-is-universal/812731/12 "2018-04-19T23:14:24Z")
Treat sentient creatures that are valuable to your society better than sentient creatures (humans and animals) that are irrelevant or threatening to your society. Don’t commit incest ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-rule-that-is-universal/812731/13 "2018-04-19T23:35:32Z")
I’m going to say no. Why should there be? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-rule-that-is-universal/812731/14 "2018-04-19T23:36:43Z")
All moral rules are universal. But not everyone knows all of the moral rules. If there’s a culture where rape is accepted, for instance, that doesn’t mean that rape is moral for those people. That means that that culture is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-rule-that-is-universal/812731/15 "2018-04-19T23:55:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > All moral rules are universal. But not everyone knows all of the moral rules. > > If there’s a culture where rape is accepted, for instance, that doesn’t mean that rape is moral for those people. That means that that culture is wrong. How can you make that claim? Or rather how is it your claim is more valid than an opposing claim? ---
**Author:** ![Monimonika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85e7bf/32.png) [@Monimonika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monimonika)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-rule-that-is-universal/812731/16 "2018-04-20T00:11:05Z")
How about “eye for an eye”? The law of retribution. I think this is the very basis of justice in any society, as well as what keeps those who would otherwise abuse others in check (“absolute power corrupts” and all that). It’s what causes and/or prolongs wars. If that’s not universal (or near-universal), I don’t know what is. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-rule-that-is-universal/812731/17 "2018-04-20T00:26:31Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > But is there any moral rule that is universal, I.e., found in every culture? > > I myself like to think there are certain broad principles like mercy and kindness that are. You may be interested in looking through the examples that C. S. Lewis gave as “Illustrations of the Tao” in an appendix to [The Abolition of Man](https://archive.org/stream/TheAbolitionOfMan_229/C.s.Lewis-TheAbolitionOfMan_djvu.txt). He lists (and gives quotations to support) the following: 1. The Law of General Beneficence 2. The Law of Special Beneficence 3. Duties to Parents, Elders, Ancestors 4. Duties to Children and Posterity 5. The Law of Justice 6. The Law of Good Faith and Veracity 7. The Law of Mercy 8. The Law of Magnanimity ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-rule-that-is-universal/812731/18 "2018-04-20T00:33:28Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Except in places where war is seen as an option, and except in places where you can legally be killed as the punishment for a crime, and except in places where respect can possibly be earned instead of it being something you have just for existing… > > So… Yeah… Umm… The OP isn’t asking for moral rules which are _absolute_, i.e. have no exceptions; he’s asking for moral rules which are _universal_, i.e. are found in all human cultures. Pretty much all human cultures see killing another human being as morally problematic, something that requires a specific justification, and that is regarded as “murder” or equivalent where that justification is absent. They may differ as the justification or range of justifications they accept, but the basic rule; that killing requires a substantial justification and is gravely wrong without it, is probably universal. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-rule-that-is-universal/812731/19 "2018-04-20T00:42:56Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > How can you make that claim? > > Or rather how is it your claim is more valid than an opposing claim? Well, you could go with Kant and say that the claim is self-refuting. If rape in any form were the norm, how could you possibly label it as a crime? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-rule-that-is-universal/812731/20 "2018-04-20T01:12:25Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > Not sure if its a moral rule as such, but I would think [i.e. based on no facts] that most cultures would recognise that children, especially the very young are not capable of informed intent and capacity to take responsibility for their actions. In other words any breach of laws or cultural norms by a kid would be judged differently to an adult’s breach. The Victorian justice system did not recognize any difference in ages between offenders, and routinely locked children up in adult jails. Records indicate that children as young as 12 were executed by the state, often for what we would consider petty crimes in modern society. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-moral-rule-that-is-universal/812731.md?page=2)