# Is there any need for heavily Camouflaged soldiers anymore? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 1, 2012, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-need-for-heavily-camouflaged-soldiers-anymore/623739 "2012-06-01T05:33:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-need-for-heavily-camouflaged-soldiers-anymore/623739/1 "2012-06-01T05:33:20Z")
This article includes a photo of a rocky hillside with two elite Israeli army assassins blending into the landscape. Very impressive for\* pre-1990’s\* tactics. However, if the guards merely scanned the area with a thermal imaging camera or high tech binoculars wouldn’t these “elite trained” troops stand out like neon signs? For that matter, isn’t thermal heat a standard part of any military sensor, alarm system? Is camouflaged training that useful anymore in modern military tactics? I understand the average soldier still wants a standard issue camo uniform. The days of the British Redcoats are long over. 😉 Battlefield snipers are too accurate these days. But, do elite teams that infiltrate need the elaborate camo training that was so essential pre 1990? > **[Can you find... Too late, you're dead: See if you can spot the two incredible...](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2152671/Can--Too-late-youre-dead-See-spot-incredible-elite-Israeli-army-assassins-blending-landscape-open-fire.html)** > > These elite Israeli army assassins, pictured on rocky ground in the north of the country, are trained to blend into the landscape so well you're unlikely to even know they're there. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-need-for-heavily-camouflaged-soldiers-anymore/623739/2 "2012-06-01T05:40:33Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > However, if the guards merely scanned the area with a thermal imaging camera wouldn’t these “elite trained” troops stand out like neon signs? That assumes that the enemy has such equipment. Most hi-tech warfare these days is asymmetrical, with rich well equipped countries fighting poor & badly equipped groups, often not even other actual soldiers. Those Israeli soldiers aren’t going to be fighting America or the UK. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-need-for-heavily-camouflaged-soldiers-anymore/623739/3 "2012-06-01T05:49:09Z")
As Der Trihs says, most enemies don’t have IR. Also, some uniforms have features to make them less visible to IR. Lastly, even in first world militaries, not every soldier has such equipment and they don’t use it all the time. Even if they did, using IR on camouflaged soldiers is still not as easy/fast/simple as using your eyes on non-camouflaged troops. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-need-for-heavily-camouflaged-soldiers-anymore/623739/4 "2012-06-01T06:39:29Z")
The Three C’s (camouflage, cover and concealment) are still important today. You can’t shoot what you can’t see. Also, as **Der Trihs** and **MichaelEMouse** point out, most troops do not have IR gear. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-need-for-heavily-camouflaged-soldiers-anymore/623739/5 "2012-06-01T06:53:06Z")
Does IR gear even work if the ambient temperature is over body temperature? Maybe if we start fighting wars that aren’t in the desert… ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-need-for-heavily-camouflaged-soldiers-anymore/623739/6 "2012-06-01T07:13:20Z")
First of all, those aren’t “assassins”, they’re soldiers. Not that I expect any better from the Daily Mail. Second, I don’t know if wearable IR devices are even available. All the IR I’m familiar with is either heavy, tripod-based gear, or mounted on tanks. It certainly isn’t something regular infantrymen are just walking around with, even in technologically-advanced countries. And third of all, that pic shows that you don’t need fancy-schmancy digital cammo schemes to be effective. Good old fashioned army green can be just as good. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-need-for-heavily-camouflaged-soldiers-anymore/623739/7 "2012-06-01T07:46:07Z")
As others have pointed out, it depends greatly upon who you’re fighting. Q: What works great against a small group of soldiers with every technological advantage? A: A boatload of young guns, full of piss and vinegar, loaded to the teeth with AKs and RPGs who just don’t give a fuck ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-need-for-heavily-camouflaged-soldiers-anymore/623739/8 "2012-06-01T07:56:45Z")
There’s several hand held thermal imaging binoculars. FLIR technology is getting cheaper and cheaper. But, I think FLIR is only for nighttime? FLIR monocular for 3 grand. > **[Amazon.com: FLIR Scout PS32 320x240 monocular 7.5Hz, NTSC : Sports &...](https://www.amazon.com/FLIR-Scout-320x240-monocular-7-5Hz/dp/B005J2KKFO)** > > Product Description You can traverse rough terrain to scope out the “perfect spot” at dusk, before dawn and even when it’s pitch black outside. You can discover nocturnal animals, find wandering members of your party, locate lost livestock... A thermal eye camera for $4200. I think this works in daylight? > **[Amazon.com: ATN X200 Thermal Eye Camera : Industrial & Scientific](https://www.amazon.com/ATN-X200-Thermal-Eye-Camera/dp/B000WGIO8W)** > > ATN X-200 Thermal-Eye high resolution digital thermal imaging camera is one of the smallest and lightest handheld model available on the market today. With its durable housing, it is designed for a variety of applications including public safety,... ---
**Author:** ![BowlOfDucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2bfe46/32.png) [@BowlOfDucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BowlOfDucks)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-need-for-heavily-camouflaged-soldiers-anymore/623739/9 "2012-06-01T08:38:57Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > Does IR gear even work if the ambient temperature is over body temperature? Maybe if we start fighting wars that aren’t in the desert… Yep, it still works. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-need-for-heavily-camouflaged-soldiers-anymore/623739/10 "2012-06-01T09:49:55Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > As others have pointed out, it depends greatly upon who you’re fighting. > > Q: What works great against a small group of soldiers with every technological advantage? > > A: A boatload of young guns, full of piss and vinegar, loaded to the teeth with AKs and RPGs who just don’t give a fuck And it depends what you mean by “works great”. A bunch of angry guys with AK47s versus a trained group of soldiers with the latest kit are likely to get their asses handed to them (so to speak). However, in an asymmetric conflict situation, any casualties among the soldiers, even if they are vastly outnumbered by “young guns” casualties, they may consider a victory. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-need-for-heavily-camouflaged-soldiers-anymore/623739/11 "2012-06-01T09:50:53Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > Does IR gear even work if the ambient temperature is over body temperature? Maybe if we start fighting wars that aren’t in the desert… Yes it works fine. IR imaging needs a temperature difference between objects it doesn’t matter which is hotter or cooler. > [@aceplace57](#): > > There’s several hand held thermal imaging binoculars. FLIR technology is getting cheaper and cheaper. But, I think FLIR is only for nighttime? FLIR works at any time of day. The only real issue with IR is when the temperature of the object you’re looking for cools or warms to the same temperature as the background. When I was doing airborne surveillance for Customs, this was an issue when looking at boats around dusk and dawn. In general IR is best in cool dry climates, but we were operating in the tropics and could see small wooden boats about 10nm away. Large merchant vessels could be seen 40-50nm or more. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-need-for-heavily-camouflaged-soldiers-anymore/623739/12 "2012-06-01T09:58:09Z")
I’ve often wondered about camouflage. The Israelis seem to get by without it-their army uniforms are olive green (much like the USA of WWII). Yet, one would think that the camouflage patterns uniforms would be vastly better. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-need-for-heavily-camouflaged-soldiers-anymore/623739/13 "2012-06-01T12:44:41Z")
I find it amusing that the gun-toting solders in the New York subways and train stations are wearing jungle camouflage. Shouldn’t they be dressed as bricks or glass, or something? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-need-for-heavily-camouflaged-soldiers-anymore/623739/14 "2012-06-01T12:58:30Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > I find it amusing that the gun-toting solders in the New York subways and train stations are wearing jungle camouflage. Shouldn’t they be dressed as bricks or glass, or something? Or baggy trousers, gold chains and tattoos. [Marisa Tomei]Oh, yeah, _you blend_.[/Marisa Tomei] > [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > Yes it works fine. IR imaging needs a temperature difference between objects it doesn’t matter which is hotter or cooler. > FLIR works at any time of day. The only real issue with IR is when the temperature of the object you’re looking for cools or warms to the same temperature as the background. When I was doing airborne surveillance for Customs, this was an issue when looking at boats around dusk and dawn. In general IR is best in cool dry climates, but we were operating in the tropics and could see small wooden boats about 10nm away. Large merchant vessels could be seen 40-50nm or more. In the past, waiting to attack under cover of darkness was sometimes advantageous. In the IR world of future warfare, I wonder if waiting for that perfect 98.6-degree day to launch one’s attack will become a useful tactic? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-need-for-heavily-camouflaged-soldiers-anymore/623739/15 "2012-06-01T13:14:54Z")
If we’ve learned anything from films, it’s that you can mask your IR with mud. Of course the soldiers will have to apply the mud to each other, as it needs to get _everywhere_ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-need-for-heavily-camouflaged-soldiers-anymore/623739/16 "2012-06-01T13:39:46Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > I find it amusing that the gun-toting solders in the New York subways and train stations are wearing jungle camouflage. Shouldn’t they be dressed as bricks or glass, or something? > [@Sailboat](#): > > Or baggy trousers, gold chains and tattoos. > > [Marisa Tomei]Oh, yeah, _you blend_.[/Marisa Tomei] If they’re totting heavy weapons its beneficial to the public that they are **very clearly** identified as soldiers and not some random thug/nut. I would would be running if I ever saw a baggy trousers/gold chain/tattoos guy carrying an M16. ---
**Author:** ![abel29a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@abel29a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abel29a)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-need-for-heavily-camouflaged-soldiers-anymore/623739/17 "2012-06-01T13:41:40Z")
As others have noted above IR devices are far from equipping every troop in even modern armies, and is somewhat cumbersome to use. You also have the problem of aiming - I’ve only tried aiming a soft gun once with IR googles so no real experience, but you lose some sense of perspective and distance, and using the aiming device of a weapon (be it optics or iron sights) become harder. Therefore, I’d still prefer camouflage,if for no other reason than forcing the enemy to use IR devices and thus lose some flexibility. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-need-for-heavily-camouflaged-soldiers-anymore/623739/18 "2012-06-01T13:50:36Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > First of all, those aren’t “assassins”, they’re soldiers. Not that I expect any better from the Daily Mail. > > Second, I don’t know if wearable IR devices are even available. All the IR I’m familiar with is either heavy, tripod-based gear, or mounted on tanks. It certainly isn’t something regular infantrymen are just walking around with, even in technologically-advanced countries. > . You are way out of date. Someone already linked to a somewhat affordable FLIR device that you can get on Amazon. There are, of course, ruggedized versions of those for the military. Commercial IR cameras exist that you can easily hide in a closed hand and can be hooked up to a little lightweight toy helicopter and provide excellent daytime images. They’re a common option in some luxury automobiles. In the not so distant future, they’ll be a very affordable commodity item. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-need-for-heavily-camouflaged-soldiers-anymore/623739/19 "2012-06-01T13:53:53Z")
> [@abel29a](#): > > As others have noted above IR devices are far from equipping every troop in even modern armies, and is somewhat cumbersome to use. You also have the problem of aiming - I’ve only tried aiming a soft gun once with IR googles so no real experience, but you lose some sense of perspective and distance, and using the aiming device of a weapon (be it optics or iron sights) become harder. > > Therefore, I’d still prefer camouflage,if for no other reason than forcing the enemy to use IR devices and thus lose some flexibility. I’m not real familiar with military tactics but wouldn’t their use be more for where to aim a mortar/rocket/missile rather than a rifle? ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-need-for-heavily-camouflaged-soldiers-anymore/623739/20 "2012-06-01T13:55:26Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > I find it amusing that the gun-toting solders in the New York subways and train stations are wearing jungle camouflage. Shouldn’t they be dressed as bricks or glass, or something? One of the benefits of camouflage patterns is that it breaks up your silhouette. Even if the pattern doesn’t blend in with the background very well, it does actually make it harder to tell you’re person-shaped at a glance, especially in the confusion of a fight. Of course, some camo patterns work better than others, and sometimes the whole point is just to distinctively identify who you are (the grey tigerstripe uniforms we wear in the Air Force nowadays are famous for not really blending in with anything, but I guess it’s easier to tell us apart from the Army guys now.) And most of the newer camo uniforms being used in the US at least are designed in such a way as to be harder to see on IR cameras. There was a big deal when the uniforms were first introduced when they weren’t sure which laundry detergents we could use to wash our uniforms lest we ruin that property. Presumably they decided that wasn’t a risk, or that our likelihood of running into the Predator in the jungles of Afghanistan were slim and thus the IR masking treatments in our uniforms were not that important after all. But most importantly, IR gear is expensive. That limits its use on the battlefield considerably if you could spend that money on other things like ammo or food. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-need-for-heavily-camouflaged-soldiers-anymore/623739.md?page=2)