Is there any need for heavily Camouflaged soldiers anymore?

[Alessan]

@ralph124c

I’ve often wondered about camouflage. The Israelis seem to get by without it-their army uniforms are olive green (much like the USA of WWII). Yet, one would think that the camouflage patterns uniforms would be vastly better.

It’s also a matter of identification - all of our enemies or potential enemies wear either cammo (the Syrians alone have something like 10 different patterns) or civvies. That means that if we see someone in solid green, we know not to shoot them.

[Scumpup]

Since soldiers need uniforms anyway, there is no reason not to go with cammie jammies. Most of the enemy is either not going to have IR equipment or is not going to be looking through it at the moment if they do. Even in the US military, every grunt isn’t issued a IR device.

[Bill_Door]

@Richard_Pearse

Yes it works fine. IR imaging needs a temperature difference between objects it doesn’t matter which is hotter or cooler.(snip)In general IR is best in cool dry climates, but we were operating in the tropics and could see small wooden boats about 10nm away. Large merchant vessels could be seen 40-50nm or more.

I’m going to say that imaging capabilities that work up to 50nm distance aren’t worth much on today’s battlefields.

[Loach]

@Raguleader

One of the benefits of camouflage patterns is that it breaks up your silhouette. Even if the pattern doesn’t blend in with the background very well, it does actually make it harder to tell you’re person-shaped at a glance, especially in the confusion of a fight. Of course, some camo patterns work better than others, and sometimes the whole point is just to distinctively identify who you are (the grey tigerstripe uniforms we wear in the Air Force nowadays are famous for not really blending in with anything, but I guess it’s easier to tell us apart from the Army guys now.)

And most of the newer camo uniforms being used in the US at least are designed in such a way as to be harder to see on IR cameras. There was a big deal when the uniforms were first introduced when they weren’t sure which laundry detergents we could use to wash our uniforms lest we ruin that property. Presumably they decided that wasn’t a risk, or that our likelihood of running into the Predator in the jungles of Afghanistan were slim and thus the IR masking treatments in our uniforms were not that important after all.

But most importantly, IR gear is expensive. That limits its use on the battlefield considerably if you could spend that money on other things like ammo or food.

Or the blue camo the navy wears. Because its important to blend in with the water when you are on a giant aircraft carrier.

[ZenBeam]

@MichaelEmouse

As Der Trihs says, most enemies don’t have IR.

Also, some uniforms have features to make them less visible to IR.

Lastly, even in first world militaries, not every soldier has such equipment and they don’t use it all the time. Even if they did, using IR on camouflaged soldiers is still not as easy/fast/simple as using your eyes on non-camouflaged troops.

A fourth benefit is it works against the local civilian population, who might give your adversary a heads-up.

[gazpacho]

@Bill_Door

I’m going to say that imaging capabilities that work up to 50nm distance aren’t worth much on today’s battlefields.

I was thinking that but then figured out he meant nautical miles.

[dropzone]

@Raguleader

One of the benefits of camouflage patterns is that it breaks up your silhouette. Even if the pattern doesn’t blend in with the background very well, it does actually make it harder to tell you’re person-shaped at a glance, especially in the confusion of a fight.

The first place I saw a soldier in that new-fangled digital camo was in a drug store and even there it played havoc with his silhouette and made him harder to focus on.

[Bill_Door]

@gazpacho

I was thinking that but then figured out he meant nautical miles.

OK, so he’s got to be aircraft based, because unless you’re 2,200 feet up the horizon has got to be closer than 50 nautical miles.

[Ashley_Pomeroy]

@aceplace57

However, if the guards merely scanned the area with a thermal imaging camera or high tech binoculars wouldn’t these “elite trained” troops stand out like neon signs?

I know from my elite sniper training (in, er, Operation: Flashpoint) that there’s a difference between being sneaky so that an alerted enemy can’t spot you, and being sneaky so that the enemy isn’t even aware you’re there. Unless the other side routinely scans the area with thermal imaging cameras - which they might well do, but assuming they don’t - if you’re well-camouflaged and avoid detection they won’t even think to look. Until you’ve delivered the fatal shot, at which point it’s too late, you’re already escaping. If on the other hand the enemy do suspect you’re there they will find you, with dogs and infrared and helicopters and so forth, because it’s their job and they would absolutely love to kill a sniper.

Which is important to remember in Operation: Flashpoint because you can’t save the game and the missions go on for ages. I’m a bit behind the times; at least two generations of different sequels have come out since then, but it’s still a good game.

[Bear_Nenno]

@Alessan

Second, I don’t know if wearable IR devices are even available. All the IR I’m familiar with is either heavy, tripod-based gear, or mounted on tanks. It certainly isn’t something regular infantrymen are just walking around with, even in technologically-advanced countries.

The US Army has thermal imaging devices available at the squad level. They are as small and light as other available night vision devices and mount to the helmet or weapon system. Similar to this:
http://www.nvdepot.com/thermal/MTM.asp It also takes pictures, which is a nice touch.

Camo is still very important, regardless.

[Lumpy]

@Richard_Pearse

Yes it works fine. IR imaging needs a temperature difference between objects it doesn’t matter which is hotter or cooler.

FLIR works at any time of day. The only real issue with IR is when the temperature of the object you’re looking for cools or warms to the same temperature as the background. When I was doing airborne surveillance for Customs, this was an issue when looking at boats around dusk and dawn. In general IR is best in cool dry climates, but we were operating in the tropics and could see small wooden boats about 10nm away. Large merchant vessels could be seen 40-50nm or more.

I presume you mean nautical miles rather than nanometers.

[Richard_Pearse]

@Lumpy

I presume you mean nautical miles rather than nanometers.

Ah yes thanks for the correction. It was an aircraft mounted FLIR and I did mean nautical miles.

[Bill_Door]

@Richard_Pearse

Ah yes thanks for the correction. It was an aircraft mounted FLIR and I did mean nautical miles.

Yeah, gazpacho and I figured that out way up the page.

[Richard_Pearse]

@Bill_Door

Yeah, gazpacho and I figured that out way up the page.

Yes I did see that as well, Lumpy’s was the most convenient post to reply to.

[Kobal2]

@appleciders

Does IR gear even work if the ambient temperature is over body temperature?

Yes it does. You just switch which (“hot” or “cold”) gets highlighted on the scope.
The main issue is really around dusk & dawn, when the heat of the day is falling but isn’t the freezing cold of the desert night yet or vice versa. During those few hours, basic IR imaging gear is next to useless since body temp ~= ambient temp.

[TriPolar]

Cell phones with IR cameras are in the works. It won’t be long before everyone has night vision. It will probably be a feature of Google Glasses or something like that.

[Rick]

Camo is also helpful if you want to take a nap.

[Raguleader]

@Loach

Or the blue camo the navy wears. Because its important to blend in with the water when you are on a giant aircraft carrier.

The running theory amongst many sailors I talked to is that it makes them blend in with the water better if they fall overboard - thus motivating sailors to learn to swim, or to stop falling off the friggin boat.

As far as an airborne IR camera effective to 50 nanometers, you just need a really good pilot.

[chappachula]

here’s a fascinating video clip of an entire platoon camouflaged–very effectively.
a perfectly tranquil scene, not a single person in sight…
I wouldn’t want to be the enemy caught in their line of fire.

http://www.break.com/index/hide-and-seek-2000644
(25 seconds long)

[Reply]

@chappachula

here’s a fascinating video clip of an entire platoon camouflaged–very effectively.
a perfectly tranquil scene, not a single person in sight…
I wouldn’t want to be the enemy caught in their line of fire.

http://www.break.com/index/hide-and-seek-2000644
(25 seconds long)

Is that a joke? Even with (or maybe because of) the poor video quality, it looked like a line of people right there… two more right there… and then they stood up right where you’d expect them to :dubious: Their ghillie suits (if that’s what they are?) were so dark against the lighter grass they stood out like bushes.