# Is There Any Path To Legitimizing Centrist Politics/Party? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 5, 2018, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144 "2018-08-05T21:38:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144/21 "2018-08-07T13:23:02Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > 1. Iraq Invasion > 2. longest war in US history in Afghanistan Yes. Whether left, right or center, intelligent people oppose stupidism. > [@](#): > > 1. extreme growth in government spending Oh my. Google “Discretionary spending as percent of GDP”, subtract military, and come back when you’re better informed. > [@](#): > > 1. Huge bailouts > 2. Unprecedented Fed intervention Progressives would have preferred to see home-owners helped, rather than rich bankers, but either way _allowing financial collapse_ would have been extremely unwise. _Do you disagree?_ > [@](#): > > 1. NATO expansion A treaty like NATO might have led to the defense of Czechoslovakia in 1938 and prevented WWII. In fact, it’s done a pretty good job of maintaining peace in Europe for 70 years. Do you dislike peace? > [@](#): > > 1. drone bombings spreading throughout Mideast and into Africa > 2. Kill list > 3. Indefinite detention > 4. mass incarceration I’m not sure what “Kill list” is — Plans to execute top terrorists who want to kill thousands of Americans? But the detention and incarceration are right-wing ideas, not progressive. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144/22 "2018-08-07T13:40:21Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Yes. Whether left, right or center, intelligent people oppose stupidism. They are bipartisan extreme efforts. You’re welcome. > [@](#): > > Oh my. Google “Discretionary spending as percent of GDP”, subtract military, and come back when you’re better informed. Lol. “Google a completely different metric, subtract some shit, and be better informed.” > [@](#): > > Progressives would have preferred to see home-owners helped, rather than rich bankers, but either way _allowing financial collapse_ would have been extremely unwise. _Do you disagree?_ Was the unprecedented intervention extreme or not? You may think extremism was necessary, that’s irrelevant. Extremism is extremism. > [@](#): > > A treaty like NATO might have led to the defense of Czechoslovakia in 1938 and prevented WWII. In fact, it’s done a pretty good job of maintaining peace in Europe for 70 years. Do you dislike peace? No it wouldn’t have. Relative peace in Europe can be attributed to different things. I specifically singled out the expansion of NATO, nice rhetorical trick though. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure what “Kill list” is — Plans to execute top terrorists who want to kill thousands of Americans? The progressive loves the secret kill list and targeted assassinatoon of American citizens and their children. > [@](#): > > But the detention and incarceration are right-wing ideas, not progressive. Mass incarceration and indefinite detention received bipartisan support. Yes the right-wing Baltimore City and State of Maryland. Some goofy shit gets said on these boards, that’s for damn sure. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144/23 "2018-08-07T14:43:06Z")
[QUOTE=septimus;21129998 In what sense are most Democratic politicians far left? I see two possibly “far left” positions among the Democratic mainstream: (1) support for gay marriage. (2) banning of semi-automatic high-capacity rifles. [/QUOTE] The proposals most vulnerable to centrist skepticism as “far left” include stuff like free college for all, a $15 minimum wage and abolishing the ICE. Speaking as a self-defined centrist, I wish these ideas weren’t being bandied about by Democrats, because they give the right legitimate ammo for riling up their base (as opposed to the complete bullshit upon which they generally rely). ---
**Author:** ![johnod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dc4da7/32.png) [@johnod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnod)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144/24 "2018-08-07T15:45:59Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > I think one of the worst things that has happened in modern times in the extremisim and “team” politics that are dominant today. You are either far left or right and anything near the middle just makes both parties not take you seriously. > > Why can’t a republican agree that just maybe climate change is a real thing and find a way to incentivize Big Oil even more? (Remember when Climate Chage started as a republican lead effort… times have changed indeed). > > Why can’t a democract say that just maybe we need SOME level of improved checks and balances in our border security without a gazillion dollar dream wall? Why can’t a democrat agree that maybe letting non US citizens/those without an ID vote is a bad idea? > > Why can’t a republican agree that maybe you cannot raise a family on $7.25 per hour while a democrat agrees that a national minimum wage of 17-20 per hour might actually force more corporate investment in automation and actually reduce the available work? > > Why can’t democrats and republicans agree that the Richard Nixon created Sally Mae being privitized has caused a student loan epidemic of corruption, defaults and sky rocketing tuition costs where the borrower is usually a kid with very little financial experience or means to pay it back. Republicans do not want a socialist free college system but maybe they can agree the system is broke and find a middle ground (take Sally Mae back to being a federal program). > > I know the answers to the why’s above… lobbyists, dollars, perks and payoffs, quid pro quo, constituents voting you out, etc. But all we have now is absolute extremism that I believe is very frustrating to millions of Americans who see EVERY bill, EVERY ideaology, EVERY Law challenged vehemently. > > I know some issues are far less likely to find middle ground (abortion for example) but my point here is why does nearly every politician that can make any impact in the governance of our country have such extremist views? > > Are the levels of identity politics in place now good for our country? > > Politics has always been and will always be about different sides battling it out with vitriol… both sides have corruption and alterior motives… and I do not expect a monarchy in American anytime soon… but has politics EVER been this far from center? Is there any place for a real centrist movement in this time of pro socalisim vs extreme capitalists? O, I see what you’re talking about, common sense, doesn’t seem to be a lot of that around anymore far as I can see, unfortunately. I find myself wondering the same things these days. I find while my views on things have not changed substantially ( but some) whereas I was once viewed as “left” wing I am now considered “right” wing. To my mind the “left” has gone off the rails, into lunacy. The “right” which I always considered in the wrong, mainly, now seems benign by comparison. Frankly I think the whole adversarial political party approach has finally become inane, and is no longer effective. If one says A the other immediately say B. as you pointed out. It doesn’t seem designed to accomplish reasonable solutions any longer, if indeed it ever was. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144/25 "2018-08-07T16:11:13Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > I think one of the worst things that has happened in modern times in the extremisim and “team” politics that are dominant today. You are either far left or right and anything near the middle just makes both parties not take you seriously. Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Barack Obama recently the President of the United States? > [@](#): > > Why can’t a democract say that just maybe we need SOME level of improved checks and balances in our border security without a gazillion dollar dream wall? Obama did that. And got no credit from Republicans for doing so. > [@](#): > > Why can’t a democrat agree that maybe letting non US citizens/those without an ID vote is a bad idea? Non-U.S. citizens, sure. Those without an ID, no. Too many people don’t have them, and in too many states now, they’ve made it really hard to get one. > [@](#): > > Why can’t a republican agree that maybe you cannot raise a family on $7.25 per hour while a democrat agrees that a national minimum wage of 17-20 per hour might actually force more corporate investment in automation and actually reduce the available work? Nobody that I know of is asking for a national $17-20 minimum wage. And AFAICT, there’s no evidence that automation significantly reduces the overall number of jobs. Think of the millions of jobs that have been automated in the past 50 years. There used to be an adage that the two parties wanted the same things, but they believed in different ways of getting there. So the Dems did health care via the Heritage Foundation, Romneycare route: we all want everyone to be able to get decent health care, right? So we’ll do it the conservative way, making as much use of market mechanisms as we can. Well, we know what happened. And same thing with climate change: cap-and-trade had worked with acid rain and the ozone hole. But the GOP killed it when the Dems proposed it for carbon emissions. When the two parties want vastly different things, what’s the middle ground? As blogger [John Cole said](https://www.balloon-juice.com/2009/02/05/youll-never-get-this-21-minutes-of-your-life-back/) in early 2009, “Imagine trying to negotiate an agreement on dinner plans with your date, and you suggest Italian and she states her preference would be a meal of tire rims and anthrax. If you can figure out a way to split the difference there and find a meal you will both enjoy, you can probably figure out how bipartisanship is going to work the next few years.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144/26 "2018-08-07T16:18:30Z")
I’m mildly surprised by the number of people calling for common-sense government who then list off a number of dogmatic unexamined beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144/27 "2018-08-07T18:13:56Z")
> [@johnod](#): > > I find while my views on things have not changed substantially ( but some) whereas I was once viewed as “left” wing I am now considered “right” wing. > To my mind the “left” has gone off the rails, into lunacy. > The “right” which I always considered in the wrong, mainly, now seems benign by comparison. What color is the sky in your world? The Democrats are at least still tied to objective reality. The Republicans are completely divorced from it. Frankly, if I had the power, most of the right would be confined to a rubber room because they’re insane. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144/28 "2018-08-07T18:15:16Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m mildly surprised by the number of people calling for common-sense government who then list off a number of dogmatic unexamined beliefs. There are quite a few usernames in this thread that I don’t think I’ve ever seen post before. How curious… ---
**Author:** ![johnod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dc4da7/32.png) [@johnod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnod)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144/29 "2018-08-07T22:06:03Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > What color is the sky in your world? The Democrats are at least still tied to objective reality. The Republicans are completely divorced from it. Frankly, if I had the power, most of the right would be confined to a rubber room because they’re insane. I never mentioned any political party, just left leaning and right leaning. I’m in Canada. Take a valium. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144/30 "2018-08-07T22:13:45Z")
> [@johnod](#): > > I never mentioned any political party, just left leaning and right leaning. > I’m in Canada. > > Take a valium. So what color is the sky in Canada? I confess I myself was astonished to hear that anybody believes that the american right wing (aka the conservatives/republicans) have been adopting policies traditionally considered left wing (aka liberals/democrats). I myself am literally unable to think of any policy position that the republicans stole from the democrats. Aside from endorsing racism, that is. The southern strategy stole that one back in the late sixties. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144/31 "2018-08-07T23:13:03Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I confess I myself was astonished to hear that anybody believes that the american right wing (aka the conservatives/republicans) have been adopting policies traditionally considered left wing (aka liberals/democrats). > > I myself am literally unable to think of any policy position that the republicans stole from the democrats. Aside from endorsing racism, that is. The southern strategy stole that one back in the late sixties. Racism (as you note), support of the FBI, support for globalization, support for conservation, support for abortion, etc. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144/32 "2018-08-07T23:20:33Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Racism (as you note), support of the FBI, support for globalization, support for conservation, support for abortion, etc. Are we talking about the same republicans? They don’t support _any_ of that stuff. (I’m so confused.) ETA: Except racism, obviously. They support that. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144/33 "2018-08-08T00:07:28Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Are we talking about the same republicans? They don’t support _any_ of that stuff. (I’m so confused.) > > ETA: Except racism, obviously. They support that. The EPA was created by Nixon. Roe v Wade was decided by a Republican majority Supreme Court. The FBI was supported by the Republican party in majority, until Trump, while the Democrats were suspicious that they were abusing their access to phonecall metadata and other stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144/34 "2018-08-08T00:17:27Z")
Having to reach back 40+ years feels like cheating, somehow. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144/35 "2018-08-08T09:34:42Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The EPA was created by Nixon. > > Roe v Wade was decided by a Republican majority Supreme Court. Did you know Lincoln was a Republican? Most people don’t even know he was a Republican. Does anyone know? Lot of people don’t know that. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144/36 "2018-08-08T10:53:18Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Did you know Lincoln was a Republican? Most people don’t even know he was a Republican. Does anyone know? Lot of people don’t know that. Yep, so was Teddy Roosevelt, creator of most (?) of our national parks? > **[List of lands protected by Theodore Roosevelt through executive action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lands_nationalized_by_Theodore_Roosevelt_through_executive_action)** > > Below is a list of lands set aside as national parks, reserves, or other conservatories by President Theodore Roosevelt via executive order or proclamation. During his presidency, Roosevelt issued nearly 10 times more executive orders than his predecessor. Many lands started out as preserves, but were expanded by later presidents and made into national forests. > A cornerstone of his actions focused on the issue of conservation, and Roosevelt set aside more national parks and nature preserves ... The Republican party used to be the party of the North. At this point, I think it’s fair to call it the predecessor to today’s Democratic party. The Southern strategy caused the names to flip, but not the policy. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144/37 "2018-08-08T11:53:05Z")
Centrism is when political actors are willing to compromise, understanding that they might not get everything they want, but they can at least get some of it. The Republicans don’t operate that way because the political mechanisms that influence the party won’t allow it. Republican politics is about refusing to compromise, and labeling anyone who compromises an enemy of the party (and people). There is no way to compromise with a party that operates this way. It’s a fool’s errand to even think of compromising with Republicans right now. The only choice is to crush them in elections, to show demonstrate in absolute terms that their politics will result in certain defeat. Third parties and centrism are not a solution; they are the friend of the uncompromising right wing. The only compromise that should be made is for left wing and ‘centrists’ to put aside their differences and vote against Republicans. Period. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144/38 "2018-08-08T12:51:59Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The Republican party used to be the party of the North. At this point, I think it’s fair to call it the predecessor to today’s Democratic party. The Southern strategy caused the names to flip, but not the policy. No. Although the key controversies varied over the decades and centuries, and “business-vs-labor” was never the overriding issue, there is a clear tendency for Democrats to take the side of labor and the common people in matters involving business-vs-labor, compared with their opponents (Federalist, Whig, Republican) who tend to take the side of business. This has been the case ever since Thomas Jefferson’s Democratic Party. > [@Thomas Jefferson](#): > > Those who labor in the earth are the chosen people of God. > > The abolition of domestic slavery is the great object of desire in those colonies where it was unhappily introduced in their infant state. > > We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal … > > I am conscious that an equal division of property is impracticable. But the consequences of this enormous inequality producing so much misery to the bulk of mankind, legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property…[a] means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise. > > Whenever there is in any country, uncultivated lands and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right. The earth is given as a common stock for man to labour and live on. Jefferson’s writings have much other wisdom. More wisdom indeed than all the blatherings of all of today’s Republicans summed together. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144/39 "2018-08-08T13:23:48Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > No. Although the key controversies varied over the decades and centuries, and “business-vs-labor” was never the overriding issue, there is a clear tendency for Democrats to take the side of labor and the common people in matters involving business-vs-labor, compared with their opponents (Federalist, Whig, Republican) who tend to take the side of business. This has been the case ever since Thomas Jefferson’s Democratic Party. I agree that it has taken time for the flip to occur, but right now both parties are probably about equal in terms of how much they focus on the common man, as opposed to the wealthy. Farmers used to be a core block of the Democrats. They are completely Republican now. In this last election, the Rust Belt went to the Republicans. Obama propped up the banks during the crisis and Hillary was up to her scalp in banking circles. Democrats are the enemy of business because of their conservationist efforts not because they’re the _enemy of business_, these days. Trump’s throwing businesses under the bus with his tariffs and he was perfectly happy to suggest propping up the farmers with free money, to keep them afloat. In another decade it may well be that the flip will have fully completed. Economic policy has been the slowest to convert but I’m not sure that anything else that the Democrats believe in these days can be traced back to the Democratic party before the Southern Strategy. Jefferson was all about the noble farmer. How many farmers are Democrats these days? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144/40 "2018-08-08T16:24:38Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > Why can’t a democract say that just maybe we need SOME level of improved checks and balances in our border security without a gazillion dollar dream wall? > [@RTFirefly](#): > > Obama did that. And got no credit from Republicans for doing so. To be fair, so did George W. Bush, way back in 2007. More money for border security. More border patrol agents. The DREAM Act. A bill crafted by three Republican and one Democratic senators, then sponsored by Harry Reid. After three failed votes to get the bill out of committee, Harry Reid gave up. Bush persuaded him to take one more shot and three weeks later, the bill actually made it to the Senate floor, but failed on an attempt to move it for a vote. On the bright side, I suppose, [the opposition to it was bipartisan.](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/110-2007/s204) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-path-to-legitimizing-centrist-politics-party/819144.md?page=3)