# Is there any point, any more, in the U.S. having an embargo on Cuba? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173 "2005-12-11T21:46:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/1 "2005-12-11T21:46:43Z")
The U.S. trade embargo on Cuba has an estimated impact of $70 billion a year on the Cuban economy (and causes an estimated loss to U.S. exporters of $1.2 billion a year). [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United\_States\_embargo\_against\_Cuba#Effects\_of\_the\_embargo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba#Effects_of_the_embargo) For comparison, Cuba’s estimated GDP in 2003 was only $32.13 billion. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy\_of\_Cuba](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Cuba) Yet the embargo has not perceptibly weakened the Castro regime or caused Cuba’s national economy to collapse entirely. From the former link: > [@](#): > > The collapse of the Soviet bloc in 1989 and of the Soviet Union itself two years later resulted in an economic crisis in Cuba and in the embargo, having its greatest effect by denying Cuba the ability to replace Soviet imports with US imports. Cuba has developed trading relations with the rest of the world, including a substantial amount of official (as well as much unofficial) trade with the U.S. but since the U.S. is the closest geographic entity to Cuba and the dominant producer in the region the necessity of importing goods from elsewhere, such as Europe made these goods more expensive due to transportation costs. Despite the difficulties created by the embargo in the 1990s, Cuba defied predictions that without Soviet support it would quickly collapse. The blow was partly softened by Cuba opening up to tourism. > > Official US exports to Cuba in 1999 totalled $4.7 million, mainly donations of medical aid, pharmaceuticals and other relief or charitable aid, and Cuba ranked 180th out of 180 on the list of importers of U.S. agricultural products in 2000. As a result of the relaxation of sanctions since 2000, Cuba rose to 138th on the agricultural product export list in 2001, 45th in 2002, and was estimated to rank 33rd in 2003. So, what’s the point, any more, of keeping the embargo in place? Short of outright foreign invasion, it appears that Castro **will** rule until he dies. And after that – assuming there will be a regime change, shouldn’t we want it to go the way it went in the relatively prosperous Communist states of Eastern Europe, not the way it went in the much more impoverished Soviet Union? IOW, isn’t it in the U.S.’ best interests to make Cuba as rich as possible, even while Castro rules? And why is Castro such a threat nowadays, anyhow? I mean, to anyone outside his own country? Maybe in 1965, when Che Guevara went abroad to stir up revolution everywhere, it seemed possible (to those who feared such a prospect and to those who hoped for it) that Communism would sweep across Latin America. What chance is there nowadays? The name of “Communism” has lost its power to conjure. The Zapatista rebels in Mexico do not even call themselves Communists or Marxists; if their rebellion had started 20 or even 10 years earlier, they almost certainly would have. Even Castro’s ally Hugo Chavez calls his system “Bolivarian,” not Communist. Whatever that turns out to mean, it probably will not resemble Cuba’s system very closely. Finally, if we can trade with China, and Vietnam, how can we justify not trading with Cuba? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/2 "2005-12-11T21:56:59Z")
This came up a few months ago. Essentially the answer came down to: We embargoed them due to their proximity and limitted power. Vietnam is not close and China is not small. Now that we have embargoed them, and they still are run by a dictator, there is no particular reason to stop. The US can live without the trade from Cuba. However, all the former Cubans in Florida (a key voting state) are for the continuation of the embargo, so while there is no reason to let up, there is a reason to continue. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/3 "2005-12-11T22:20:15Z")
And the Chinese and Vietnamese in America do not constitute as large and powerful a single-issue lobbying/voting/fundraising bloc who are a key part of the economy of the largest city of a “battleground” state with a large and growing electoral vote, as the Cubans do. The hardline Cuban Exile leaders \*want[í] the embargo allegedly on “principle” – but then again, I’m pretty sure the Vietnamese were not happy with recognition of Hanoi, either – but I can’t help but suspect that part of their line is based on an interested desire that, once the comunists fall, there be no recognized legitimacy in Cuba to counter their program for what to do then. To open up normal trade and relations with Cuba, they feel, would mean giving up THEIR claim re: the lands and properties that were redistributed by the revolution (including collecting back rent from the European businesses who HAVE been tenanted in some of those properties) as well as their opportunity to be the ones who move in with investment and capital upon reconstruction and, let’s be honest, to be the ones who go back to take over politically and “settle accounts”. Better to have everyone and everything in Cuba be “illegitimate” in US eyes. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/4 "2005-12-11T22:36:31Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > To open up normal trade and relations with Cuba, they feel, would mean giving up THEIR claim re: the lands and properties that were redistributed by the revolution (including collecting back rent from the European businesses who HAVE been tenanted in some of those properties) . . . . Can they really be that out of touch? They are never going to get any of that property back. No post-Castro government, of whatever form or ideology, is going to restore it to them. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/5 "2005-12-11T23:01:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Can they really be that out of touch? They are never going to get any of that property back. No post-Castro government, of whatever form or ideology, is going to restore it to them. From what I’ve seen, they fully expect to ride back into Havana after Castro’s death on the vanguard of a US army. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/6 "2005-12-11T23:07:29Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > From what I’ve seen, they fully expect to ride back into Havana after Castro’s death on the vanguard of a US army. !!! . . . I see . . . And has anyone in the government given them any reason to think so? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/7 "2005-12-11T23:19:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > !!! . . . I see . . . And has anyone in the government given them any reason to think so? Nothing definite, but the Republicans have had them on a long leash for decades. If they deliver the votes, the vaguely reassuring platitudes will continue to be dropped into speeches etc… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/8 "2005-12-11T23:27:40Z")
Does anybody actually care to defend the embargo as something useful/important/necessary? That’s what I’m trying to debate here. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/9 "2005-12-11T23:28:01Z")
I’m not sure. On one side the cold war is over so there is no reason to do this. I also do not know if they are really a ‘sponsor of terrorism’ as they are made out to be, so that reason is probably mute. On the other side Cuba is still a dictatorship and free economic trade with a dictatorship is not a good idea. The US has imposed embargos /sanctions on several countries due to human rights abuses including Sudan, Myanmar and North Korea. If Cuba improved its political and civil rights a bit I’d be ok with lifting the sanctions. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/10 "2005-12-11T23:30:57Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > On the other side Cuba is still a dictatorship and free economic trade with a dictatorship is not a good idea. . . . See this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=349074](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=349074) ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/11 "2005-12-11T23:35:16Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > I’m not sure. On one side the cold war is over so there is no reason to do this. I also do not know if they are really a ‘sponsor of terrorism’ as they are made out to be, so that reason is probably mute. > > On the other side Cuba is still a dictatorship and free economic trade with a dictatorship is not a good idea. The US has imposed embargos /sanctions on several countries due to human rights abuses including Sudan, Myanmar and North Korea. If Cuba improved its political and civil rights a bit I’d be ok with lifting the sanctions. \ The argument is “moot,” not “mute.” \ ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/12 "2005-12-11T23:36:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > . . . See this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=349074](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=349074) Like you said, we can afford to embargo Cuba, Myanmar and Iran, we can’t afford to embargo China. Especially with the North Korea issue going on. Besides, China has made alot of advances towards promoting civil and human rights in the last 25 years. To my knowledge Cuba has not. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/13 "2005-12-12T00:08:09Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > Besides, China has made alot of advances towards promoting civil and human rights in the last 25 years. To my knowledge Cuba has not. You’ve linked to a thread where I was specifically saying “Business with bad people = Good” which would make my following comments look like flip-flopping. It is entirely arguable that the reason China has advanced while Cuba has not is because of the embargo–as per my comments in the other thread. Of course it could just be an issue of “different countries, different leaders, different cultures.” I would still not argue for ending the embargo. The reason being, different countries, different leaders, different cultures. As a moral stance I see nothing wrong with continuing to embargo Cuba. Castro may not be the greatest leader ever, and I suspect was probably downright a nasty fellow when he was young. But in my lifetime (1979 -\> Present) I’ve never heard of any particular human-rights travesties in Cuba. As such, not stirring the pot strikes me as a pretty good choice. Eventually Castro will die, the country will still be in a fairly good state and rich for tourist trade, and there will be a good supply of American-raised and taught ex-Cubans ready to jump right back and fix things up. Ending the embargo previous to that point really doesn’t achieve anything as the country won’t be ready for a regime change, and Castro isn’t going to be changing his policy at this late date. How we’re going to finagle things once he does die so that things end up well is going to have to be a carefully handled task. Hopefully we will have someone a bit more skilled than W. Bush at that time. …Which is another consideration. Would you really want us to remake our foreign policy towards a country that close to us while W. Bush is the guy who would be handling it? So pretty much, the stick and carrot approach isn’t a bad one–but given the amount of power we can bring to bear on Cuba given our relative financial size plus the resident Cubans–I see no particular reason to not just wait for the moment to come and get everything over with one fell swoop of financial downpoor and the democratically raised. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/14 "2005-12-12T00:14:27Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > You’ve linked […] “You” being the universal and generic “you” referring to some unknown mystical party who is not the person I quoted… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/15 "2005-12-12T01:00:03Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > Besides, China has made alot of advances towards promoting civil and human rights in the last 25 years. To my knowledge Cuba has not. To my knowledge China has not. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/16 "2005-12-12T01:03:22Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > As a moral stance I see nothing wrong with continuing to embargo Cuba. Castro may not be the greatest leader ever, and I suspect was probably downright a nasty fellow when he was young. But in my lifetime (1979 -\> Present) I’ve never heard of any particular human-rights travesties in Cuba. As such, not stirring the pot strikes me as a pretty good choice. Eventually Castro will die, the country will still be in a fairly good state and rich for tourist trade, and there will be a good supply of American-raised and taught ex-Cubans ready to jump right back and fix things up. Ending the embargo previous to that point really doesn’t achieve anything as the country won’t be ready for a regime change, and Castro isn’t going to be changing his policy at this late date. I still don’t understand – what do you think **maintaining** the embargo achieves? What bad thing would happen if we dropped it right now? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/17 "2005-12-12T01:36:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What bad thing would happen if we dropped it right now? _fetches his magic ball out of his butt…_ Hmmm…well I’ll be darned if this thing isn’t showing the future today. My point is that there is no knowing. Why fiddle with it when there’s nothing positive we can do? I mean, even as a best case scenario, any money you dump into the country is just going to go into Castro’s secret stash off, buried in some island or snorted by his moll. Paying attention to them again though could set off any number of possible random events. Why risk it? Everyone is already mentally prepared for the idea that “When he dies, there will be a change.” The problem with people is that they tend to react bad when things don’t go according to the “natural flow of events” as they had ingrained in themselves. And seeing as no one is particularly suffering… _shrug_ ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/18 "2005-12-12T01:50:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > To my knowledge China has not. Cite? In 1978 China initiated some human rights reforms. [http://english.people.com.cn/200202/11/eng20020211\_90295.shtml](http://english.people.com.cn/200202/11/eng20020211_90295.shtml) [http://english.people.com.cn/200412/24/eng20041224\_168540.html](http://english.people.com.cn/200412/24/eng20041224_168540.html) Since China embarked on the opening-up and reform policy, the NPC and its Standing Committee promulgated 440 sets of laws or legal interpretations and the State Council has issued 960 administrative rules while local legislatures have developed more than 8,480 new pieces of legislation, many of which are directly related to human rights protection. [http://www.china-un.ch/eng/bjzl/t176944.htm](http://www.china-un.ch/eng/bjzl/t176944.htm) [http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/xw/t191475.htm](http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/xw/t191475.htm) I recently read in a magazine (either National Geographic, Time or Newsweek, I can’t remember which) that rights have even improved dramatically in the last 5 years. Now Chinese people can do things like openly protest government policies whereas in the late 90s that would’ve gotten them arrested. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/19 "2005-12-12T01:53:35Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > I mean, even as a best case scenario, any money you dump into the country is just going to go into Castro’s secret stash off, buried in some island or snorted by his moll. :dubious: What reason do you have to believe that? The U.S. is practically the **only** country that doesn’t trade with Cuba. When the Venezuelans or the Spanish buy Cuban sugar, what do you think happens to the money? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/20 "2005-12-12T02:06:38Z")
If everyone is trading with them and they have all the money in the world, why does the US need to start trading or else things will go " the way it went in the much more impoverished Soviet Union?" [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173.md?page=2)