# Is there any point, any more, in the U.S. having an embargo on Cuba? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173 "2005-12-11T21:46:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/41 "2005-12-13T05:36:47Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > The Cuban people are tough and smart, and they’ve held on this long. A little longer hardly matters, and if/when Cuba opens up, it’s to be hoped that all will go well there. You seem to be operating under the assumption that Castro is worse for the Cuban people than the embargo is. I haven’t seen any evidence for this, do you have any? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/42 "2005-12-13T06:03:16Z")
> [@treis](#): > > What about the Cuban people? Why do you think the money would go to the people? “Hey everyone, you dun good this year so you’re all getting a 1 cent raise!” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/43 "2005-12-13T06:10:12Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > Why do you think the money would go to the people? > > “Hey everyone, you dun good this year so you’re all getting a 1 cent raise!” Why **wouldn’t** it go to the people? (Unless you actually believe Castro would divert it all into an account in the Caymans.) You pump money into a national economy, whether capitalist or socialist, it boosts the whole economy. I expect the economic benefits of U.S. trade with Cuba would be more widely shared than in many countries with which we already trade. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/44 "2005-12-13T06:10:52Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > Why do you think the money would go to the people? > > “Hey everyone, you dun good this year so you’re all getting a 1 cent raise!” Is this a joke or a serious attempt at debate? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/45 "2005-12-13T06:47:46Z")
> [@treis](#): > > You seem to be operating under the assumption that Castro is worse for the Cuban people than the embargo is. I haven’t seen any evidence for this, do you have any? Only first hand stories of Cuban refugees, and the deaths of some long ago friends that couldn’t make it out before they were executed. Other than that, I got no proof. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/46 "2005-12-13T07:03:40Z")
So no evidence then. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/47 "2005-12-13T09:01:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You pump money into a national economy, whether capitalist or socialist, it boosts the whole economy. That’s assuming the government is honest and has limitted control over the piggy bank. In a true communist system, indeed any money you put in would be effectively the same as giving every one a raise (all received money split evenly among everyone.) So, how many times has the “salary” of the Cuban people been boosted or lowered based on a good or bad production year? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/48 "2005-12-13T09:07:16Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Is this a joke or a serious attempt at debate? Is Cecil any less accurate in his responses for including jokes? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/49 "2005-12-13T12:49:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why **wouldn’t** it go to the people? (Unless you actually believe Castro would divert it all into an account in the Caymans.) You pump money into a national economy, whether capitalist or socialist, it boosts the whole economy. > > I expect the economic benefits of U.S. trade with Cuba would be more widely shared than in many countries with which we already trade. I’ll point out what happened with the “food for oil” program. Not that I am claiming that something like that would happen in Cuba, mind you, but we do have a fresh example of a program where money which was supposed to go to 'the people" went instead for palaces, weapons, graft, corruption, and so forth. Not for “food” like it was supposed to. I have no dog in this hunt, either way. I think Castro and his regime are despicable, but I don’t really know how much good the Embargo is doing. So, Embargo on or off, I am OK with either. But let’s not pretend that Dictators can’t (and haven’t) loot their "peoples’ money. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/50 "2005-12-13T15:34:02Z")
Well guys, I had a big long post. Then my \*\*\*\*\*\*\* internet connection died. I was going to make a long analysis and brief survey of communist industrialization, but I 'm just not goig to write it again. Sorry. Miserable. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/51 "2005-12-13T16:59:01Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > How we’re going to finagle things once he does die so that things end up well is going to have to be a carefully handled task. Hopefully we will have someone a bit more skilled than W. Bush at that time. Insert comment involving a blindfold, a dart, and a telephone book. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/52 "2005-12-13T17:14:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It was Stalin’s brutal methods that transformed Russia from an agrarian state to an industrialized one capable of going toe-to-toe with Germany Stalin’s Russia went “toe-to-toe with Germany” no better or worse than Czarist Russia had a generation earlier – in both cases, Russia got pushed back but remained in existence until Germany was no longer able to sustain the two-front war. The only real difference is that the Germans were more insistent about playing it out to the bitter end the second time around. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/53 "2005-12-13T17:19:17Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > Well guys, I had a big long post. Then my \*\*\*\*\*\*\* internet connection died. I was going to make a long analysis and brief survey of communist industrialization, but I 'm just not goig to write it again. Sorry. Miserable. Select-All, Copy, Paste, and Notepad (or whatever) are your friends. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/54 "2005-12-13T18:59:34Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > So, how many times has the “salary” of the Cuban people been boosted or lowered based on a good or bad production year? I dunno. I think the effect of a good or bad year would be reflected, not in the number of pesos you take home each week, but in what you can buy with them. E.g., shortly after the USSR collapsed food in Cuba was expensive and hard to get. Now they’ve revitalized their agricultural sector (with non-petroleum-dependent farming methods – and less specialization in sugarcane), and increased their trade with foreign countries (other than the U.S.) and now food is more cheap and abundant (we’ve discussed that in earlier Cuba threads). Not much different, in that regard, from a capitalist economy. Supply and demand. And if the U.S. started trading with them, a lot of things would become even more cheap and abundant, and the common people **would** benefit from that. Unless (or for that matter, even if) Castro diverted a lot of the trade-derived revenue stream to a secret account, etc. And I read him as a bit too much of a True Believer to do that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/55 "2005-12-13T19:01:04Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > Stalin’s Russia went “toe-to-toe with Germany” no better or worse than Czarist Russia had a generation earlier – in both cases, Russia got pushed back but remained in existence until Germany was no longer able to sustain the two-front war. The only real difference is that the Germans were more insistent about playing it out to the bitter end the second time around. I know the history of both wars, **Steve.** Russia’s showing in the second war was a **lot** more impressive. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/56 "2005-12-13T19:29:33Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > Stalin’s Russia went “toe-to-toe with Germany” no better or worse than Czarist Russia had a generation earlier – in both cases, Russia got pushed back but remained in existence until Germany was no longer able to sustain the two-front war. The only real difference is that the Germans were more insistent about playing it out to the bitter end the second time around. Err, you _do_ know that Russia lost WWI, right? The Treaty of Brest-Litovisk? Now, it can certainly be argued that without the USA, Russia would have lost WWII, too. But that remains in the land of “what if?”. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/57 "2005-12-13T20:28:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I think the effect of a good or bad year would be reflected, not in the number of pesos you take home each week, but in what you can buy with them. Valid. My brain skipped that bit. > [@](#): > > Unless (or for that matter, even if) Castro diverted a lot of the trade-derived revenue stream to a secret account, etc. And I read him as a bit too much of a True Believer to do that. I don’t so, that’s pretty much all there is to it. In a Communist nation, you can never be at the top or the bottom based on money, so the currency becomes favors. You want someone to like you, you do things for them. Someone wants something from you, they do something for you. Meaning that you have a political/business structure that is entirely based on graft. Even if Castro himself was as clean as Mr. Rogers, his entire government is by default going to be made up of all the people who over the last 40 years or however long were willing to prostitute their sister to the senator, beat up the guy who dared to smoke a cheap, fowl smelling cigar near the senator, and to lock up the journalist who was about to write a scandalous article about the senator. And if you’re the guy who gets to decide who is at what rank in the ladder, everyone is eating out of your hand. Now if you think that Communism is a good thing, humankind will behave well in an equal society because at heart we all want what is best for everyone, and that the Russians didn’t only do reasonable fightiing the Germans because it was “Maybe be killed by Germans or definitely be killed by Stalin” then that’s up to you, but personally nothing I know makes that even possibly vibe true. So, I’ll be reading, but pretty much I think that you’re letting your political opinion gloss over a whole lot of historical analysis of what really went on in Communist nations–and personally I’m not fluent enough in all the literature that I feel like I would have any hope of going up against a die-hard Socialist believer with a million links all ready to be pasted in against any low-tier first-out-the-gate “Why Communism doesn’t work” responses. So, not saying I’m right, just that I doubt I have the time or knowledge to make any further statements than I already have. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/58 "2005-12-13T20:52:18Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > Now if you think that Communism is a good thing . . . Nah. (I’m a non-Marxist democratic socialist – we hate Communists like Baptists hate Catholics (or used to). I think of socialism as something that might be produced by a gradual process of evolution, not revolution.) But the issue here is simply whether the U.S. should drop the embargo. I say that would be the best thing for the Cuban people, **even** if it helped Castro or his designated successors hang on to power; and, in any case, we do business now and in the past with a lot of brutal dictatorships that arguably are strengthened by the commerce, and we do it without drawing any connection between the peoples’ suffering and the bottom line of interested American businesses, and what’s so fuckin’ special about Castro? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/59 "2005-12-13T21:19:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > what’s so fuckin’ special about Castro? To an extent that’s somewhat what I’m wondering. What’s so special about Cuba that anyone wants it be de-embargoed when everyone who has lived in the country is shouting out to keep it up. They care a lot more than me about the people there, and are a lot more knowledgeable of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/60 "2005-12-13T21:34:14Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > What’s so special about Cuba that anyone wants it be de-embargoed when everyone who has lived in the country is shouting out to keep it up. They care a lot more than me about the people there, and are a lot more knowledgeable of the situation. But those are, by definition, people who were so discontented they had to leave. That doesn’t make them a good representative sample of public opinion in Cuba. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173.md?page=4)