# Is there any point, any more, in the U.S. having an embargo on Cuba? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173 "2005-12-11T21:46:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/81 "2005-12-16T01:37:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Castro is **not** a “mass murderer.” Well, nice debating you. See you in another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/82 "2005-12-16T03:48:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And he can be trusted to do things good for the people because he has, in fact, done so – at least, a lot of very worthwhile things have been done on his watch. I’d be interested in a list of “worthwhile things” Castro has done for his people, with good cites and hard numbers. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/83 "2005-12-16T04:06:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: You’re really reaching there. Castro is **not** a “mass murderer.” \ He does not “like to kill people.” I don’t know if he takes personal pleasure in killing people or not. He clearly has no problem with ordering his thugs to kill entire families if the adults differ with his politics. > [@](#): > > And he can be trusted to do things good for the people because he has, in fact, done so – at least, a lot of very worthwhile things have been done on his watch. And Hurricane Katrina removed some dead limbs from trees on the Gulf Coast. That don’t mean Katrina was a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/84 "2005-12-16T04:23:35Z")
[http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/suicidepidemic.html](http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/suicidepidemic.html) Cuba does have a high suicide rate. [http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat6.htm](http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat6.htm) The numbers of political murders in Cuba are varied. 5,000-12,000 seems to be the best estimate. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/85 "2005-12-16T15:53:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: Castro is **not** a “mass murderer.” Please tell me that by "Castro is **not** a “mass murderer” you meant to add “…as compared to PolPot, Stalin, Hitler, Mao…”- right? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/86 "2005-12-16T16:01:51Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > I’d be interested in a list of “worthwhile things” Castro has done for his people, with good cites and hard numbers. From “Why the U.S. Fears Cuba,” by Seumas Milne, in _The Guardian,_ 7/31/03 – [http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0731-09.htm:](http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0731-09.htm:) > [@](#): > > Which only goes to reinforce what has long been obvious: that US hostility to Cuba does not stem from the regime’s human rights failings, but its social and political successes and the challenge its unyielding independence offers to other US and western satellite states. Saddled with a siege economy and a wartime political culture for more than 40 years, Cuba has achieved first world health and education standards in a third world country, its infant mortality and literacy rates now rivaling or outstripping those of the US, its class sizes a third smaller than in Britain - while next door, in the US-backed “democracy” of Haiti, half the population is unable to read and infant mortality is over 10 times higher. Those, too, are human rights, recognized by the UN declaration and European convention. Despite the catastrophic withdrawal of Soviet support more than a decade ago and the social damage wrought by dollarization and mass tourism, Cuba has developed biotechnology and pharmaceutical industries acknowledged by the US to be the most advanced in Latin America. Meanwhile, it has sent 50,000 doctors to work for free in 93 third world countries (currently there are 1,000 working in Venezuela’s slums) and given a free university education to 1,000 third world students a year. How much of that would survive a takeover by the Miami-backed opposition? The Castro regime has also famously worked to eliminate the legacy of racism in Cuba, although some structural racism remains. And I repeat my repetition: When Cuba opened trade with a lot of other countries after the Cold War, life did get better for the people. So, if they are allowed to open trade with the U.S. too, why should not life for them get better still? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/87 "2005-12-16T17:15:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The Castro regime has also famously worked to eliminate the legacy of racism in Cuba, although some structural racism remains. I hear he has also been working on _eliminating_ the issue with homosexuals… (Though some remain.) > [@](#): > > And I repeat my repetition: When Cuba opened trade with a lot of other countries after the Cold War, life did get better for the people. So, if they are allowed to open trade with the U.S. too, why should not life for them get better still? Cuba fell below where it could eek by. However, now they are getting by. Anything more is gravy and there’s no reason to believe Castro will use it on them. Most likely he would lower prices a little in a few public places so he could get some publicity, then dump the rest of his savings into his doctor squad, foreign advertising, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/88 "2005-12-16T19:52:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: You’re really reaching there. Castro is **not** a “mass murderer.” Not unless you count those who got killed trying to cross the Florida Straits as murder victims of his – and you shouldn’t; they knew the risks, mainly of drowning. Otherwise, AFAIK he is innocent of any Stalin-style purges or artificial famines. I think the head of a regime who kills a few thousand dissedents a year might reasonably be called a “mass murderer”. He ain’t Hitler, but perhaps we can use a bit higher standard than that. > [@](#): > > And he can be trusted to do things good for the people because he has, in fact, done so – at least, a lot of very worthwhile things have been done on his watch. [More worthwhile for himself and Raul than for the average Juan Doe rolling cigars, it seems.](http://www.freemoneyfinance.com/2005/08/net_worth_news_.html) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/89 "2005-12-16T20:08:02Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > I hear he has also been working on _eliminating_ the issue with homosexuals… (Though some remain.) The Cuban government’s treatment of homosexuals – [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human\_rights\_in\_Cuba#Homosexuality](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba#Homosexuality) – is indeed a crime, and a sin, and not in any way appropriate for inclusion in my response to **Carnac’s** post. It is also irrelevant to the embargo issue, unless you wish to compare Cuba’s record in this regard to those of all other countries with which the U.S. has free trade. Such as China. [http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/c-gays.html](http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/c-gays.html) > [@Sage Rat](#): > > Cuba fell below where it could eek by. However, now they are getting by. Anything more is gravy and there’s no reason to believe Castro will use it on them. Most likely he would lower prices a little in a few public places so he could get some publicity, then dump the rest of his savings into his doctor squad, foreign advertising, etc. Maybe. But we have no way of knowing that, do we? As I said above, shouldn’t ending an embargo be the **default** position when it’s not clear we have any greater reason to have the embargo than to have free trade? And, anyway, what’s wrong with the Cuban state spending money on its “doctor squads”? That’s no misappropriation of public funds, not by any reasonable standard. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/90 "2005-12-16T20:29:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I think the head of a regime who kills a few thousand dissedents a year . . . Cite? > [@Shodan](#): > > [More worthwhile for himself and Raul than for the average Juan Doe rolling cigars, it seems.](http://www.freemoneyfinance.com/2005/08/net_worth_news_.html) :rolleyes: Are you still on about that silliness? We had a thread on it months ago: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=307603](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=307603) And that canard was thoroughly debunked. _Forbes_ accorded Castro enough personal wealth for inclusion on its “richest people” list based on valuations of state-owned companies if they were privately traded and the fact that he is, after all, the dictator, so those are his companies. That does not constitute proof that he actually has **any** disposable personal wealth (i.e., something he could fall back on if he fell from power and had to flee the country). Of course Castro probably enjoys a higher standard of living than the average citizen, but show me a head-of-state who doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173/91 "2005-12-16T20:29:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Maybe. But we have no way of knowing that, do we? Indeed, just as my family had no way of knowing what to do about my uncle’s family. At which point the debate has looped. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-point-any-more-in-the-u-s-having-an-embargo-on-cuba/335173.md?page=4)