# Is There Any Practical Way to Increase the Birthrate? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 6, 2025, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655 "2025-01-06T20:41:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/1 "2025-01-06T20:41:54Z")
Most countries’ birthrates are now below that needed to replace the current populations. Mostly we consider this a good thing. Put that aside for a moment. Many things have been tried to encourage women to have more children. These include cash incentives, free or low-cost child care and so on. None of these ideas have worked. Can you imagine any practical way to increase birthrates in a population? I cannot. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/2 "2025-01-06T20:46:48Z")
1. Forbid any sex ed. in schools. 2. Make contraceptives illegal 3. Forbid or severely limit tertiary education, specially to women 4. Make abortion illegal. Disgusting as it is, that has a chance to work. (Not that I think is necessary or warranted) ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/3 "2025-01-06T20:50:59Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > Forbid or severely limit tertiary education, specially to women It is commonly said that the birthrate goes down as female education goes up. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/4 "2025-01-06T20:53:13Z")
By everyone, or just by people that enforce this barbaric custom of not educating females? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/5 "2025-01-06T20:58:13Z")
I am sorry., I do not understand your question. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/6 "2025-01-06T21:02:32Z")
It has often been said that the best birth control is a job. In all societies which allow women to work, there are fewer children born. In societies that don’t allow women to work , the difference is obvious. In answer to the OP–there is no practical way to increase the birthrate, in the real world. BUT…in an imaginary world: For modern societies which value individual freedom, the only way to increase the birthrate would be to create the 1950’s stereotype. Make jobs high enough paying that one income could buy a house and support a family easily. That would allow many women who are now stuck at jobs they hate to quit working. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/7 "2025-01-06T21:03:30Z")
I am sorry, but I cannot make the question any simpler. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/8 "2025-01-06T21:05:25Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > It is commonly said that the birthrate goes down as female education goes up. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > By everyone, or just by people that enforce this barbaric custom of not educating females? @Czarcasm is asking who commonly says that the birthrate goes down as female education goes up? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/9 "2025-01-06T21:14:32Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > These include cash incentives, free or low-cost child care and so on. None of these ideas have worked. Increase the size of the incentives as I think those tried are lower than the additional income gained from a second income. Free health care is also a big deal [I have a relative with a new child and additional copays and deductibles from the birth and baby’s health care are adding up to several thousand dollars]. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/10 "2025-01-06T21:22:17Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > @Czarcasm is asking who commonly says that the birthrate goes down as female education goes up? The stats show this pretty clearly, from [a US study](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db332.htm#fig4): [![](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/images/databriefs/301-350/db332_fig04.gif) ](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/images/databriefs/301-350/db332_fig04.gif) ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/11 "2025-01-06T21:53:53Z")
Just take a look at the countries with the highest birth rates - they must be doing something right, right?: > **[List of countries by birth rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_birth_rate)** > > This article includes two versions of the list of countries by crude birth rate. > Crude birth rate refers to the number of births over a given period divided by the person-years lived by the population over that period. > It is expressed as number of births per 1,000 population. Niger tops the list - so let’s see what [strategies they are employing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in_Niger): - Widespread armed violence - Limited access to health services - Chronic lack of health resources - Food insecurity - Infectious diseases - [Low literacy rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Niger) - High gender inequality If you wanna be like the pros, you gotta swing for the fences! /s I am not making fun of the problems facing Niger, many of which were not their making or doing. I am just pointing out that in order to increase the birth rate in more developed countries, you have to create conditions that are known to increase birth rates, and all of those conditions are non starters. Stable, secure, well-fed, societies with close gender equality and high education tend to suppress birth rates. You can also have the government help by offering free contraception, as the [Philippines has done](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/01/12/509462732/in-majority-catholic-philippines-duterte-orders-better-access-to-birth-control) (and subsequently has a [declining birth rate](https://thediplomat.com/2022/11/philippines-registers-sharpest-ever-decline-in-birthrate/)). Bottom line is giving people the choice, they will want less kids, and affluence affords that choice, no matter how you may try to incentivize the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/12 "2025-01-06T22:00:17Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > > [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > > > These include cash incentives, free or low-cost child care and so on. None of these ideas have worked. > > Increase the size of the incentives as I think those tried are lower than the additional income gained from a second income. > > Free health care is also a big deal [I have a relative with a new child and additional copays and deductibles from the birth and baby’s health care are adding up to several thousand dollars]. 100% of this. Incentives don’t work if the net gain is still a negative (or at least perceived negative) - the loss of income, loss of advancement, loss of time, cost of prenatal through birth care, on TOP of the costs of raising and educating a child to 18+ is staggering in the US. And honestly, for some, the biggest is the loss of _time_ I mentioned above. Even if the cash loss was balanced out, you’re going to lose a LOT of time to be just yourself for the better part of two decades. Travel, eating out, going to movies, or just vegging are going to be much more difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/13 "2025-01-06T22:03:47Z")
I agree with **PastTense**. The incentives are the right move; they just aren’t generous enough. The problem is, I think the only way the incentives could increase the birth rate would be to make them so lavish that they would start to hurt the nation in other ways. It might take something as drastic as, “If you birth and raise 3 biological children, you’ll be exempt from income taxes altogether AND we’ll give you some special additional bonus.” ---
**Author:** ![betonbill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b782af/32.png) [@betonbill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betonbill)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/14 "2025-01-06T22:04:54Z")
Why on earth would we want to increase the birth rate? There are far too many humans on the earth already. In the '60s and '70s there was a movement to only replace oneself. I abided by it, and I wish that we could do something along those lines again. The world would be far better off ecologically if there were far fewer of us. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/15 "2025-01-06T22:14:02Z")
> [@betonbill](#): > > In the '60s and '70s there was a movement to only replace oneself. Developed countries are _below_ replacement rates. Often _far_ below: South Korea has a fertility rate of 0.78, while the replacement rate is 2.1. Every new generation will be 1/3 the size of the previous unless they fix things. Other countries are only slightly better. A rapidly shrinking population is a very bad thing for the people that live in it. Steady is good. Maybe even slightly shrinking. But the current rate is disastrous, especially if trends continue. One thing that _may_ help is technology that allows selecting embryos with no serious defects. A major source of anxiety among prospective parents is the possibility of having to dedicate their entire life to taking care of a child (like one with severe autism). Parents who have done this deserve much respect, but no one would ever _want_ to be in that position. More people would be parents if they could guarantee their kids wouldn’t require undue work. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/16 "2025-01-06T22:15:47Z")
The economist Noah Smith provides an answer: > **[Nobody knows how to stop humanity from shrinking](https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/nobody-knows-how-to-stop-humanity?utm_source=publication-search)** > > The big looming problem that almost no one is talking about. sub req, but a little under half of the article is provided. Me: Well who cares? The world is over-populated and we could use less pressure on the ecosystem. In particular, reducing CO2 emissions and reversing CO2 concentrations would be a great thing. The population is growing. Give me a break. Noah Smith: > Here’s the thing about exponential functions: They either explode to infinity or decay to zero. > Human population growth is an exponential. This is because _humans are the thing that produces other humans_ — the more you have, the more you produce. If every human, on average, produces 1.000001 other humans, the population will eventually explode to infinity; if every human, on average, produces 0.999999 other humans, the population will eventually decay to zero. Here are pictures of the two possible futures: [![](https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fdfd9f3d5-a2d4-4168-bc83-5c071d6226af_1979x980.png) ](https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fdfd9f3d5-a2d4-4168-bc83-5c071d6226af_1979x980.png) > So how do we create a world where the human population neither explodes into overpopulation or trails off into an empty planet? The only way is **active stabilization**. We need ways to nudge fertility a little bit above the replacement rate when it’s too low, or knock it down a little bit below the replacement rate when it’s too high. We don’t want to send fertility back to 5 or 7, but we need some way to be able to return it to 2.1 if we want to. > Right now, we know lots of policies that can _reduce_ the fertility rate — in fact, those policies have been used to great effect around the world, which is one reason population forecasts have fallen so much. We’re good on that front. But what we don’t know are policies that reliably and durably _increase_ the fertility rate by an appreciable amount. We have downward nudges, but we don’t have upward nudges yet. Me: Ok, but it took a while to develop and implement downward nudges. And I think we _do_ have upward nudges: they are just really expensive at present. Noah Smith: > There are two main classes of “pronatal” policies that people talk about — 1) paying people to have more kids, and 2) trying to change culture to encourage people to have more kids. Unfortunately, the first of these has only had minor effects so far, while nobody really knows how to do the second. Agreed that this needs to be looked into in a big way. But “big way”, is pretty cheap as things go: economists and demographers aren’t _that_ expensive. ETA: Since reading Noah’s Nov 2024 post, I’ve been wanting to debate this with @Dr.Strangelove in GD, but haven’t gotten around to framing a thread around it. ETA: Der: In addition to Handmaiden’s Tale approaches, another dystopian method would be to deny old age benefits to the childless. Or sharply reduce them. Unlikely to happen in democracies, likely to be tried in authoritarian countries. So we need to get our asses in gear and figure this out. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/17 "2025-01-06T22:21:14Z")
The obvious way is to strip women of their rights and not give them a choice in the matter. What people are dancing around is that it was never an issue in the past because women weren’t given a choice in the matter; if they didn’t want children they’d just be raped until pregnant anyway. The right wing solution, in other words: turn women back into voiceless property. Incentives _might_ work, but they are nowhere near generous enough. Not just for the reasons mentioned; something else that gets ignored is the sheer physical toll of pregnancy, some of which is permanent. You’d have to pay somebody a lot to make up for months of discomfort, the proverbially agonizing pain of childbirth, and lifelong debilitation to one degree or another. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/18 "2025-01-06T22:25:29Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > ETA: Since reading Noah’s Nov 2024 post, I’ve been wanting to debate this with @Dr.Strangelove in GD Noah explains things very well (he’s one of my favorite bloggers) and his graphs of exponential growth vs. decay make things pretty clear. The thing about exponential _growth_ is that it is actually self-limiting even without policy changes. But there seems to be no lower bound to the decay! I doubt Noah shares my opinion that Earth is actually massively _under_populated, but never mind that (it’s more of a technological question), we certainly agree that rapid shrinking is bad. Maybe we should de-stigmatize teen pregnancy. Not to the extent of withholding sex education… but maybe just not telling teens that _their life will be over_ if they have kids too early? Heck, give teen parents extra resources to incentivize them. ---
**Author:** ![3AxisCtrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/ecd19e/32.png) [@3AxisCtrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3AxisCtrl)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/19 "2025-01-06T22:42:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > … it was never an issue in the past because women weren’t given a choice in the matter; if they didn’t want children they’d just be raped until pregnant anyway. I’m genuinely curious: to which past societies do you believe this applies? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/20 "2025-01-06T22:43:19Z")
I do additionally wonder if selection effects will make an appearance. Hopefully not quite to the extent of _Idiocracy_, but: - Women who have large families will pass on large-family genes to their kids - Men and women who both want large families are more likely to mate and thus combine their genes - Kids born into large families are more likely to want large families There may be additional effects like “dumb people can’t figure out birth control”, but there are enough other factors that I hope that isn’t dominant. So maybe there will be a rebound eventually. But it had better happen quick if civilization is to last. Or at least if we want things like “retirement” to exist. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655.md?page=2)