# Is There Any Practical Way to Increase the Birthrate? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 6, 2025, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655 "2025-01-06T20:41:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/941 "2025-05-06T15:35:20Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > How many men throughout history have been renowned, or even especially honored in their own social circles, simply for being prolific fathers? There are certainly some cultures that place at least somewhat higher status on fatherhood. For example, the Arabic honorific “Abu XXX” is the opposite of many patronymics, like the -vich or -son suffixes. I’d argue the fact that some Arabic cultures consider “Father of XXX” to be an honorific worthy of going by certainly represents a certain level of respect and status attached to fatherhood. (Specifically fatherhood of a male heir, which may have other implications on gender relations, but that’s a different topic). ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/942 "2025-05-06T17:18:07Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Having children has never been a source of status or prestige even remotely close to career achievement, sporting victories, etc. Thing is just having children doesn’t deserve to have it. Anyone too lazy horny stupid too little impulse control to use birth control, and some who did, can have a kid. Having career achievement usually takes some combination of effort and skill in addition to right place right time. The status is deserved for being a _good_ parent. And few outside of the household are in position to evaluate that. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/943 "2025-05-06T21:37:14Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Having children has never been a source of status or prestige even remotely close to career achievement, sporting victories, etc., for people who had full access to those other sources of status. Namely, men. In your culture. In my culture, fatherhood doesn’t necessarily grant status, but a man who doesn’t have children is generally seen as having something wrong with him. What good is a man who doesn’t have a family? What’s the point of making money if you don’t have children to leave it to? It’s not always fair, but that’s the way it is. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/944 "2025-05-06T23:02:17Z")
Good point, but I got the impression that DemonTree is not advocating for “rais[ing] the status of parenthood” in a merely relative sense, by encouraging contempt or suspicion of non-parents as “having something wrong with” them. That might be more practically achievable than making parenthood significantly more prestigious in its own right for positive reasons, but I think it would be a lot less socially healthy. (That, of course, was a major part of how motherhood was traditionally presented as a desirable achievement for women: by widespread sneering at the unmarried and infertile women who didn’t achieve it. Good for the birthrate, not so good for the women.) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/945 "2025-05-07T01:00:15Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But nope, you’ll never level the “status and prestige” playing field between parenthood and career achievement for people who have full access to career achievement opportunities. Not unless and until society literally starts employing people to be parents and childcarers. Or possibly in some post-scarcity future where “careers” aren’t really a thing anymore. Given that humans are wired to seek status it’s a given that _something_ will be a status marker even if money and careers fall by the wayside, but it’s up in the air as to what it would be. But much like the idea that _“we don’t need to worry about population because technology will fix everything”,_ we aren’t anywhere near there yet, so it’s just an interesting hypothetical. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/946 "2025-05-07T14:33:37Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Easier said than done, but I think more workable than the nativist “bar the barn door and encourage more breeding in the barn” solution. That reminds of an insanely squicky story by Piers Anthony in _Again, Dangerous Visions._ IYKYK, but IYDK I recommend not looking it up. Well, the purpose of speculative fiction, even bad SF, is to examine society from other angles. For example, taking one concept from the present and extrapolating it to the limit. That story serves as a cautionary warning to those who would breed humans. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/947 "2025-05-07T14:57:11Z")
In the Arabized form of my name, my _kunyah_ is Umm (mother of), followed by my daughter’s name, because she was my firstborn. My son was born last. I also use an Arabic matronymic _nasab_ with _bint_ (daughter of), followed by my mother’s name. I do this consciously in support of Arab feminism, to express that there’s an alternative to patriarchy. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/948 "2025-05-07T15:03:51Z")
Can you give a full example of a name following your pattern, just so I can see what it looks like? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/949 "2025-05-07T15:17:04Z")
Certainly. These are made up names. A woman named Jane whose eldest child is Susan and whose mother is Mary could sign herself > Umm Susan Jane bint Mary The front part with _Abu_ or _Umm_ is called the _kunyah._ It can be drawn from either your literal eldest child’s name, or some concept you wish to identify with, or that others nickname you by. The middle of the sandwich is your given name, the _ism._ In Arabic, you only get one. Sorry, that’s the limit. In place of the middle name goes… The _nasab_ is _invariably_ your parent’s given name, preceded by _bint_ (daughter of) or _ibn_ (son; variant form _bin_). It can be extended to as many generations as you wish, extending back to your father’s father’s father (this is the norm in Yemen; in Egypt they only take it back to the grandfather). Or in the feminist version, one’s mother’s mother’s mother, etc. Conceivably one could zigzag from the father to the grandmother or vice versa, but I’ve never heard of anyone doing that. Following the genealogy comes the tribal name (_nisbah_). If you’re not tribal, you can substitute the adjectival form of the place you’re from, or your family’s surname if there is one. In Arab culture, surnames are optional. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/950 "2025-05-07T15:22:43Z")
I support neither natalism nor anti-natalism. I’m in favor of leaving folks to follow their own best judgment on having children. In my humble opinion if we shut off both the natalist and anti-natalist tendencies, and let everybody freak freely, then things will work out OK. All this social engineering, planning for everyone, reminds me too much of David Bowie’s lyrics > I stumble into town just like a sacred cow > Visions of swastikas in my head, plans for everyone ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/951 "2025-05-07T15:30:54Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > things will work out OK Normal ecological cycles generally do. We currently see birthrates declining as a response to overcrowding (worry about the future awaiting the next generation is a commonly cited reason for having few/no children); as the population decreases to a sustainable level birthrates will naturally shift toward equilibrium. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/952 "2025-05-07T15:34:12Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Normal ecological cycles generally do. We currently see birthrates declining as a response to overcrowding (worry about the future awaiting the next generation is a commonly cited reason for having few/no children); as the population decreases to a sustainable level birthrates will naturally shift toward equilibrium. This is my best guess, too. And I’m willing to trust to that rather than try to pressure people based on less plausible theories. And work on solving today’s problems. Like global warming. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/953 "2025-05-07T15:38:11Z")
I had 3 children, of whom 2 are still alive. Last year I lost my daughter, killed by a speeding driver. Instead of worrying about the unborn, have some care for the already born, by driving slower! Don’t speed! ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/954 "2025-05-07T15:48:27Z")
There are still some countries where some people don’t use any names other than the given name (i.e., what we call the first name). This is becoming rarer. There is one interesting case of what names are used. In Iceland, one’s full name is the given name followed by the patronym (or occasionally the matronym). This is the genitive form of the father’s (or occasionally the mother’s) given name followed by the Icelandic word for son or daughter. An example would be Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir, whose given name is Jóhanna and whose father’s given name was Sigurðar. When an Icelander emigrates to a country where last names (i.e., family names) are used, they usually turn their patronym (or matronym) into their last name. A strange case going the other way is Eliza Reid, who was the wife of the president of Iceland. She violated the rules for Icelandic names in two ways. Not only did she use a family name for her last name, but she was named Eliza, which isn’t an allowed first name for a baby in Iceland. This happened because she was born in Canada and kept her name on marrying an Icelander. ---
**Author:** ![fedman1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@fedman1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman1)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/955 "2025-05-11T01:06:03Z")
and you can always go all the back to Malthus in 1798 ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/956 "2025-05-11T02:42:14Z")
> [@fedman1](#): > > Malthus in 1798 Malthus predicted in 1798 that the world population would increase every 25 years. The population then was at least 800 million. It’s been 227 years since then. So the population would be at least 512 times 800 million now, which is more than 400 billion, if his predictions made any sense. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/957 "2025-05-11T15:14:18Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > increase to be specific, I meant double. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/958 "2025-05-11T23:18:41Z")
In his era ssrious population growth was just getting going. The early doublings of any exponential are easy. The amateur mistake is assuming the later doublings will be equally easy. In his defense, math in the late 1700s was pretty witch-doctory by our standards. He can hardly be blamed for not understanding things that mathematicians would not for another 50-75 years. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2025, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/959 "2025-05-12T01:14:20Z")
On the other side is that he also had no way to know that productivity would increase more than linearly. He looked at what was happening and assumed it would continue. Of course some now assume that productivity will continue to increase non linearly just because it has to date. Maybe it will. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2025, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/960 "2025-05-12T01:18:11Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > He can hardly be blamed for not understanding things that mathematicians would not for another 50-75 years. He would have had to do the calculating using a pen and a piece of paper, but he could have done it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655.md?page=47) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655.md?page=49)