# Is There Any Practical Way to Increase the Birthrate? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 6, 2025, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655 "2025-01-06T20:41:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/81 "2025-01-07T06:13:35Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > We could have 50 billion humans on the planet _and_ we could rewild massive stretches of wilderness with reintroduced megafauna. Indeed. The way we farm currently is awful, with enormous swaths of land dedicated to a monoculture. An obstacle to anything remotely wild. Large solar farms or arrays of indoor farming buildings aren’t perfect, but they could allow far more native life to coexist. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/82 "2025-01-07T06:19:53Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > So, um, how many kids have you reared? None. But I spent most of my life as a latchkey kid, home alone for at least a few hours a day. And more hours at school. Obviously, parenting can’t be a 24/7 job since my parents weren’t present 24 hours a day. That’s not to denigrate what they did–on the contrary, working a full-time job and raising kids is hard work! It just wasn’t 24/7, even if you include the job. They had plenty of free time. Someone with a very limited friend/family circle and/or kids that for some reason require far more looking after would have a more difficult time. The state can help with some of that. Perhaps tech can help with some of the rest. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/83 "2025-01-07T06:23:00Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Even incentives as supposedly benign as tax credits. So what do you do about social security? It’s an irrefutable fact that the working citizens must pay for the non-working ones. So if the ratio goes too far off–such as if the next generation is much smaller–then you must cut services (increase retirement age, etc.). That seems like a bigger problem than trying to put a thumb on the scale of fertility rate. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/84 "2025-01-07T06:41:02Z")
The issue is folded into a lot of the other biggies, too. Population levels in the billions is a result of industrialization and globally extended trade routes. As it was, this exploded the numbers of the underclass in the centered nations and extraction colonies in the external ones. When the dust settled, the skilled trade and managerial classes in the centered countries were too squeezed to have kids. The people in the former extraction colonies were conditioned to having kids in poverty, but upheaval and relative ease of travel made emigration to the centers possible. Cue the migration “crisis” of the first 1/2 of the 21 C.: skilled parents with no kids to replace them, immigrants with little better skills than their great-grandparents, except that instead of chopping sugar cane they use their machetes to run drug gangs. And that’s the Nigel Farage view of the situation. Going back to earlier and smarter British politicians, there was David Lloyd George’s view: “Let’s make Britain a land fit for heroes to live in!” But David’s “reward” was just more tenements for the working class Tommies. Something that would show it’s worth in St Louis Missouri at the Pruitt-Igoe housing project disaster, or the Soviet worker’s paradise apartment blocks. The typical Utopia-on-the-cheap that governments begrudgingly bestow. Luckily, British private enterprise created, for all its flaws, the “Keep the Aspidistra Flying” suburban duplexes, and this created a substantial baby-boomlet in the 1920s, who’d be ready for the next meat grinder in 20 years. The Americans improved on this after WWII with VA housing loans and GI education bills, which triggered an even greater baby boom. And despite as much reservations as there always is at opening the public purse; surprise! No postwar recession this time! Salient point: this was accomplished by both public and private sector initiatives. As long as I can remember, predictions had the world population topping out at ten million around 2050. Global climate change and wars for resources and migrants at the gates won’t matter: WWII barely affected population overall in its era, and WWIII wouldn’t either until the nukes come out. Bottom line: governments and billionaires can’t ignore the stupid 80% as ignorant voters and consumers, respectively; and instead need to work on elevating them into valued contributors. Preferably between now and 2050. (though I’ll be dead by then anyway. Please play Joe Walsh’s “Happy Day” at my funeral). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/85 "2025-01-07T07:43:03Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Free health care is also a big deal Then why are birthrates dropping in European countries with free healthcare (and excellent maternity/paternity leave as well)? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/86 "2025-01-07T09:09:25Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > By then I would think the message of “have more kids” will be culturally ingrained in the next generation. It’s definitely not happening in young Korean women at the moment, so I think you’re optimistic. > **[Why South Korean women aren't having babies](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68402139)** > > South Korea has spent billions to reverse its low birth rate, but some say it isn't listening to young women’s needs. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/87 "2025-01-07T09:35:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Then why are birthrates dropping in European countries with free healthcare (and excellent maternity/paternity leave as well)? Indeed. Just a some data points from here (Sweden): • 96 weeks of paid parental leave, per child • Cost for kindergarten is based on income, but maxes out at around $150/month • Health care and medication is free for all under 18. And birthrate is 1.5. This is not surprising, since the average age for first child is slightly over 30 for women. In large cities and their affluent suburbs the average is closer to 35. (Aside: this may also be one of the reasons C-sections have been steadily rising, from about 5 per cent of all births in 1970, to about twenty per cent now.) Quite simply, women has a smaller window of opportunity for childbearing. Why? Education. Getting a master’s takes time1. Getting established in the workforce after that degree takes a few years. Most women with a tertiary education (which is the majority of all women here), will be in their late 20’s when they’re in a position where having a child is a feasible and wanted opportunity. 1 A bachelor’s degree is hardly enough too be competitive in the work force. In certain fields a doctorate is almost required. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/88 "2025-01-07T09:44:59Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > Many things have been tried to encourage women to have more children. These include cash incentives, free or low-cost child care and so on. None of these ideas have worked. > > Can you imagine any practical way to increase birthrates in a population? I cannot. Are talking about voluntary or involuntary reproduction? Assuming you’re talking about voluntary - simply handing out a one-time cash payment isn’t going to work because it takes 18-20 years to raise a human being these days in an industrialized nation. Even monthly payments aren’t going to work unless they’re VERY substantial. Right now I’m seeing estimates that it costs around $250,000 to raise a kid to adulthood in the US. Rounding off a bit for ease of calculation, my math means that’s an average cost of around 1200/month for the 18 or so years needed to raise the kid. You’d need _at least_ that much a month payment to be an incentive, about $14,400 a year, handed out for _every_ kid produced. Well, that is NOT going to happen in the US in the current climate. I don’t know about other nations but I haven’t heard of any handing out money like that. Used to be having kids was a hedge against poverty. These days having kids can leave you in poverty. That’s a strong disincentive right there. Maybe you can afford one kid, maybe two, but having more? Nope, not if it endangers the well-being of the family you already have. As @chappachula said: > [@chappachula](#): > > For modern societies which value individual freedom, the only way to increase the birthrate would be to create the 1950’s stereotype. > Make jobs high enough paying that one income could buy a house and support a family easily. That would allow many women who are now stuck at jobs they hate to quit working. You want larger families? You have to make it SOCIALLY possible as well as financially. Right now in the US the expected norm is that ALL adults work full time. In too many instances people are working more than one job to make ends meet. Subsidized or free child care would help, but a lot of people actually want to raise their own children rather than farming them out to someone else. Making it feasible for one of the parents to be home with the kids on a daily basis without resulting in poverty (either near term or in old age when many benefits are based solely on work _outside_ the home and zero value is given to raising the next generation) and you’ll see at least some increase in family size. > [@betonbill](#): > > Why on earth would we want to increase the birth rate? There are far too many humans on the earth already. In the '60s and '70s there was a movement to only replace oneself. Because we’re approaching a point where, after the Boomers and the next couple generations die off (and they will) we’re looking at a population _crash_ and that’s not good either. Right now the overall population is still rising because of that demographic “bubble” from the post-WWII baby boom but mid-century those folks will be gone and the population will, in fact, start to go _down_. Which, by the way, is incompatible with modern capitalism and various financial institutions, like pensions and social security, which depend on ever-expanding markets and a continual supply of new people entering working years. It WILL be a problem. Ideally we should strive for an equilibrium at a population level that doesn’t destroy the eco-system, but at the same time try to get there without some horrific “solution” that would be appalling to live through. > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > One thing that _may_ help is technology that allows selecting embryos with no serious defects. A major source of anxiety among prospective parents is the possibility of having to dedicate their entire life to taking care of a child (like one with severe autism). Parents who have done this deserve much respect, but no one would ever _want_ to be in that position. More people would be parents if they could guarantee their kids wouldn’t require undue work. 1. Fear of defects is NOT the reason people aren’t having children these days 2. Kids, even healthy, defect-free kids are a crap-ton of work. Of course, if you don’t care about human rights others have already mentioned how to forcibly increase the birth rate: > [@Frodo](#): > > - Forbid any sex ed. in schools. > - Make contraceptives illegal > - Forbid or severely limit tertiary education, specially to women > - Make abortion illegal. and > [@snowthx](#): > > - Widespread armed violence > - Limited access to health services > - Chronic lack of health resources > - Food insecurity > - Infectious diseases > - [Low literacy rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Niger) > - High gender inequality Looks like parts of the US are on the way to that “solution” so there you go. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/89 "2025-01-07T09:45:37Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > That’s 10x the production of Einsteins and Feynmans and Ramanujans. 2/3 of those helped create, indirectly or directly, something that could completely end us all. Not sure that’s a nett positive. Also - 10x the Einsteins is also 10x the Hitlers. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/90 "2025-01-07T09:55:33Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > When I was in high school in the 90s, the message was that you might as well kill yourself if you got pregnant, because no matter what your life was over. Not sure what the impression is for today’s students. Wow. What high school did YOU go to? When I was in high school in the late 70’s/early 80’s they were encouraging pregnant teens to stay in school, trying to get the sperm-donors involved with their kids, and otherwise emphasizing it was NOT the end. I know the US has been swinging more conservative since my high school years but I had no idea we’d gone back to the Victorian age that quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/91 "2025-01-07T09:59:57Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I do additionally wonder if selection effects will make an appearance. Hopefully not quite to the extent of _Idiocracy_, but: > > - Women who have large families will pass on large-family genes to their kids > - Men and women who both want large families are more likely to mate and thus combine their genes > - Kids born into large families are more likely to want large families Genetics do not work like that. Nor do all people born into large families want large families, nor to all people born into small families want small families. You are not taking into account environmental factors like finances, which have tremendous impact. There are many examples of “primitive” cultures that limited reproduction to control their populations. Some of the methods used seem brutal to us because that’s what they had - populations on small islands, for example, these days use emigration and birth control rather than infanticide and piling the old and lame into a leaky canoe and sending them off to “explore”. Turns out nobody really likes killing babies or putting old people out on ice floes if there’s an alternative. Anyhow… Make an environment/society that is actually _supportive_ of people having more kids and they’ll have more kids. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/92 "2025-01-07T10:00:12Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > - Fear of defects is NOT the reason people aren’t having children these days > - Kids, even healthy, defect-free kids are a crap-ton of work. The fear is obviously greater than zero. I don’t see it in any _top_ lists of reasons people give, but you can just search for the terms and find many posts by people that have this fear. And it obviously combines with anxiety about time and money. The “wrong” kind of disability can mean a literal lifetime of care for the child–until either the parent or child dies. It is just a vastly more difficult situation than a “normal” kid that has a high degree of self-sufficiency by the time they’re a teen and no dependency at all by the time they’re 21. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/93 "2025-01-07T10:20:42Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Nor do all people born into large families want large families, nor to all people born into small families want small families. Genetics is statistical in nature. Of course there is no binary large/small family switch. But many factors can combine to form an overall tendency. Some of those factors may be indirect, like religiosity, which could encourage larger families, resistance to abortion, etc. Even without genetic factors, there are the social ones. The best predictor of a child’s religion is the parent’s religion. So religions that produce large families will outcompete those that don’t. > [@Broomstick](#): > > You are not taking into account environmental factors like finances, which have tremendous impact. I’ve not ignored that at all. I’m simply stating that natural selection may eventually play a role. That would be one factor on top of all the other ones. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Make an environment/society that is actually _supportive_ of people having more kids and they’ll have more kids. As **MrDibble** pointed out, that doesn’t seem to be helping much in Europe, which generally has great healthcare and parental leave policies. It is a bit of a paradox. Almost like a r-selection vs. K-selection dichotomy, but just within humans. When quality of life is low, people have lots of kids and just hope a few survive into adulthood. When it’s high, they have fewer kids and try to ensure all of them succeed. But maybe we’ve overshot the mark somehow… > [@Broomstick](#): > > What high school did YOU go to? Northern California. Graduated in '96. Does seem pretty over-the-top in retrospect. Sorta coincided with the over-the-top drug “education” with the DARE program. Sex ed had the same vibe as the “this is your brain on drugs” ads. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/94 "2025-01-07T10:27:01Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Which, by the way, is incompatible with modern capitalism Well, losing capitalism will be terrible, but it’s a price I’m willing to pay /s ---
**Author:** ![vbob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vbob/32/4439_2.png) [@vbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vbob)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/95 "2025-01-07T10:39:39Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > An artifical womb Manhattan Project would probably bear fruit. We can already do fruit. Weren’t we hoping for mammals? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/96 "2025-01-07T11:36:18Z")
Paid at what rate? I feel like a lot of countries with subsidized parental leave pay out some percentage of yur salary that is significantly below 100%. 60% os grrat compared to nothing, if you want a kid, but 60% for a year, and you are expected to take the year would have been really problematic for us. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/97 "2025-01-07T11:53:39Z")
Unfortunately, The Economist only does one-reader gift links, and not for a whole series of articles. But they did a whole report on it a few months back, which went through the various things states have tried to increase birth rates. The TL;DR is that none seemed to work, even the really really generous ones. > **[Cash for kids: Why policies to boost birth rates don’t work | May 25th 2024 |...](https://www.economist.com/weeklyedition/2024-05-25)** > > Cash for kids: Why policies to boost birth rates don’t work – Weekly edition of The Economist for May 25th 2024. You've seen the news, now discover the story. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/98 "2025-01-07T12:38:31Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > That’s not to denigrate what they did–on the contrary, working a full-time job and raising kids is hard work! It just wasn’t 24/7, even if you include the job. They had plenty of free time. There’s free time and there’s freedom. Raising my kids was not 24/7 but between the hours I worked , the fact that a kid has to be a certain age before you can really leave them home alone, the fact that kids are expensive , that you can maybe leave a 12 year old home alone but not in charge of her 11 year old brother, and the fact leaving them alone for a couple of hours after school can be done years before leaving them alone for a week sure , I had a lot of free time. If I wanted to spend it sitting on my couch or bringing them with me , One of the reasons I only had two was because I didn’t want to extend those years where my husband and I went out together without the kids once or twice a year. There’s only so much society can do to make having kids easier - free or low cost child care can be provided, I suppose some way could be found that I wouldn’t be permanently disadvantage for starting to have kids at 18 instead of waiting until I’ve finished advanced education etc. But society isn’t going to be able to do much about the lack of freedom that’s almost inherent in having kids. I have actually known a few people who essentially left their kids with grandparents from a few weeks after birth , visiting the kids only on weekends. No lack of freedom for the parents really at all - I try not to judge them but I really don’t understand why they had kids because I certainly wouldn’t have had kids if that was what I was going to do. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/99 "2025-01-07T13:07:11Z")
You want people to have children? Make a world that people want to bring children into. One that isn’t a crumbling post-capitalist hellscape. The reason the baby boom happened is that the defeat of Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany made the world a better place and people felt hopeful about the future. Cold War and all, it was still a far more positive and forward-looking time than anyone born in the last few decades can imagine. People believed their children would have better lives. Who thinks that now? No one who’s paying attention. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655/100 "2025-01-07T13:09:44Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Fear of defects is NOT the reason people aren’t having children these days That’s a _very_ strong statement. In fact, when we have been weighing whether to have more kids, a minor hiccup in the second pregnancy - and the fact that it could have turned out much worse than a _minor_ hiccup - is a big part of the reason why we are debating having a third kid rather than already doing it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-practical-way-to-increase-the-birthrate/1012655.md?page=6)