I would prefer a system where people can stop working at the end of their life and spend at least a few years enjoying the fruits of their labor.
That doesn’t mean that older people can’t be productive (helping with childcare is very productive, and many people choose to do some kind of work even after retiring.) But they shouldn’t have to be fully productive members of society, working full time.
I prefer one where labour isn’t tied to livelihood at all. Hence UBI.
But I was talking about how you spoke of septuagenarian abilities, not their wage earning. The ability to lead a productive life, not how they may be exploited for it. So I don’t think we’re in disagreement on that score.
BTW, I’m glad this topic is receiving increased attention everywhere. It’s pretty clear, at least among the thoughtful of us, that balancing conflicting pressures – individual liberties, economic necessities, environmental impact – will be a complicated task in the free world.
For a more expansive and free-ranging discussion about population decline in general, see Dewey_Finn’s multi-year-spanning thread here.
D’uh. For the millions of species not us.
That would mean paying poor black women to have babies. Not going to happen in the US.
I’m with you in this. Most of the ways to increase population depend on women losing agency. (And everyone’s mortality risk increasing.) And i think there are plenty of humans in the world. I’d prefer to discuss how to manage a declining population with a lot of elderly members. I think good healthcare, that increases the odds of elderly people doing productive work, is a much happier way to get there than most of the other options.
Of course, i selfishly retired in my 60s. But i didn’t have to. I’m currently exploring volunteer activities, that wouldn’t take a ton of time. but I’m capable of working a lot more than my selfish preferences.
This should be the area of focus and study, not “how can we increase the birth rate?” It’s going to come down to uncomfortable and sometimes painful choices that will upset the status quo. I don’t blame capitalism for these problems, but governments are going to have to deal with shrinking populations and conjure plans to be successful. It may require changing our current way of thinking WRT economics (“if you’re not growing, you’re dying”) and there will need to be financial trade-offs - for example rather than spending on weapon systems some of that fundage will need to be diverted over to care for the elderly. The “problem” with a declining birth rate is nothing other than financial, and it can be mitigated with some creative, and likely uncomfortable choices - we wont be able to continue to make the same choices we make now.
Why do I give a shit about them in the absence of humans?
In the presence of humans, I care very much about the rest of the species, for many reasons: they form the rest of the biosphere we share and depend on for survival; they can be exploited for medicine that save human lives; their beauty can be appreciated by people.
If all the people are dead, what the fuck do I care about any of that?
Well, you’d be dead so you have no reason to care. More importantly, nature doesn’t need to be useful to humans to justify its existence.
All the money in the world won’t help if there aren’t enough able hands to pay to do the work that needs to be done.
The fact is that with heavily enough declining populations, the “uncomfortable choice” you speak of may eventually have to be euthanization of those too old or sick to work. Simply because there won’t be enough productive people to create a surplus big enough to feed (and provide expensive medical care for) the elderly.
Sounds like a mass murderer frame of mind.
I care about the world my kids and grandkids and their kids and grandkids will inherit, even if I won’t personally be around to see it.
Even if I didn’t have kids, I would care about future worlds experienced by future people.
I have 0 interest in an Earth unpopulated by humans.
Justify to whom?
It does need to be useful to humans to justify it’s existence to humans, and since humans are the only sentient species around, they’re the only agency that matters.
Mass murderers are well known for their concern for humanity?
It’s not really financial, that suggests it’s something about money. It’s really a resource or labor issue. A lot of the things humans need require work to be done. Some of that with can be done in advance, “banked” during times of surplus (like right now). But that requires trusting that we are producing stuff now people will want later. It’s housing stock we build today going to be useful in 50 years? Maybe. And a lot of the things humans need can’t be banked too far in advance, like creating food, or can’t be banked at all, like medical care or shoveling your driveway after a snowstorm.
So if there aren’t enough productive humans to support all the humans, we run into troubles.
I believe the Japanese are working of creating robots to do some of the labor now done by humans. That’s a way of making the humans who are working more productive. But ultimately, to cope with an old-heavy population, we need some combination of making old people more productive and making everyone else more productive, as well as mechanisms to share the fruits of that labor.
Wow, i am really typing too slowly today.
OK, only humans and the human experience matters. There’s nothing out there beyond that worth jack shit. Speciesism 101.
Who else cares?
Correct.
There are lots of things out there that are worthwhile - in that they improve the human experience.
Since when is speciesism a bad thing?
Have you ever taken antibiotics? Why is one H. sapien worth more than billions of E. coli? Are you speciesist?
Precisely.
When a member of another species (from Earth or otherwise) is able to express indignation at human supremacy, I will gladly add them to the club of sentient beings whose opinions are worthy of consideration.
And there you go. Not possible to argue with the extremity of selfishness and short sightedness expressed. You demonstrate very neatly why humankind is a completely destructive force for evil.
Do you think wolves or algae care about other species?