# Is there any proof torture works? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 23, 2007, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987 "2007-12-23T02:16:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987/21 "2007-12-23T16:03:36Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] What would you tell your torturer if you _didn’t_ know the combination to the safe? [/QUOTE] It would depend on the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Sockmunkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Sockmunkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sockmunkey)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987/22 "2007-12-23T16:08:54Z")
So I guess the bottom line is that it’s only useful if you already “know” the answer or can easilly confirm it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987/23 "2007-12-23T17:03:23Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] It would depend on the circumstances. [/QUOTE] You’re being waterboarded, without either the knowledge that they know what they are doing or the assurance that they have no intention of killing you. They want the combination to the safe, and you have no idea what they are talking about. _Those_ circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987/24 "2007-12-23T17:18:58Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] You’re being waterboarded, without either the knowledge that they know what they are doing or the assurance that they have no intention of killing you. They want the combination to the safe, and you have no idea what they are talking about. _Those_ circumstances. [/QUOTE] I don’t know what I’d do. I imagine I’d try to tell them that I didn’t know the combination to the safe. By the way, would you mind telling me what your point is? Obviously torture doesn’t work if the purpose is to extract information and the subject doesn’t have the information. ---
**Author:** ![vison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e47774/32.png) [@vison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vison)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987/25 "2007-12-23T17:32:17Z")
I’m an utter newbie here, so I ask for forgiveness in advance if this link is problematical. It’s a post on another forum where this topic was being discussed. [/Does torture “work”? An expert view.](http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?t=96880&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30) ---
**Author:** ![George\_Kaplin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@George\_Kaplin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/George_Kaplin)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987/26 "2007-12-23T17:37:04Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] By the way, would you mind telling me what your point is? Obviously torture doesn’t work if the purpose is to extract information and the subject doesn’t have the information [/quote] That, I think, _is_ the point. Torture the wrong person and all you’ll get is a mountain of misinformation. If we apply this reasoning to the sort of situations which may arise in, say, a global war against Islamic extremism, we can see that the practise of torture may inadvertently darken more avenues of investigation than it illuminates. In practise that costs us time, money, and lives. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987/27 "2007-12-23T17:41:24Z")
And by the same token, tortures someone who DOES have the information and is highly motivated to not tell you anything…and again, the result seems to be that you’ll get either nothing or mis-information. It seems like a lose/lose situation to me unless you have some independent way to verify the information being gathered…in which case it seems like a rather pointless exercise. -XT ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987/28 "2007-12-23T17:44:33Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Obviously torture doesn’t work if the purpose is to extract information and the subject doesn’t have the information. [/QUOTE] Much the way a jigsaw isn’t much use in extracting diamonds from the stomach of someone who hasn’t swallowed any. And like interrogation-based torture, we won’t know until we try! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987/29 "2007-12-23T17:45:47Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] I don’t know what I’d do. I imagine I’d try to tell them that I didn’t know the combination to the safe. [/quote] In the real world of torture, that answer just won’t do. They expect that answer, and will continue questioning you until they get an answer they are satisfied with. The usual response, _eventually_, is to spew out anything you think they want to hear in hopes that they will stop. [QUOTE=brazil84] By the way, would you mind telling me what your point is? Obviously torture doesn’t work if the purpose is to extract information and the subject doesn’t have the information. [/QUOTE] Torture doesn’t work, period. If your intelligence is good enough that you _know_ that your captive has some specific valuable information, it most likely because you already have most of that information due to an inside source, either human or electronic. As far as scenarios where there is supposedly some sort of time bomb about to go off and you need the info damnfast? Let me give you a bit of advice. 1. Time bombs just aren’t all that common because the chance is too great that they’ll be found. Suicide bombers are the “in” thing nowadays. 2. If the “bad guys” decide to go the time bomb route, the timer will be set for a matter of minutes, not hours, and you’re never gonna get that info in time. 3. _24_ is only a television series. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987/30 "2007-12-23T17:57:34Z")
[QUOTE=vison] I’m an utter newbie here, so I ask for forgiveness in advance if this link is problematical. It’s a post on another forum where this topic was being discussed. [/Does torture “work”? An expert view.](http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?t=96880&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30) [/QUOTE] An interesting read. Actually sort of embarassing that in a thread asking for “proof” of tortures effectiveness or lack thereof, the only person whose actually posted something that wasn’t just a personal opinion was a guest linking to a LOTR board. The SDMB doesn’t allow the cut and paste of whole articles, I’m not sure if they allow links to such cut and pastes, but just in case (or in case the owners of the linked to message board have a similar rule and remove the linked post), here’s a more legit link to the same article from the [authors website](http://www.budiansky.com/truth.htm) Welcome to the SDMB ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987/31 "2007-12-23T18:01:07Z")
[QUOTE=George Kaplin] That, I think, _is_ the point. Torture the wrong person and all you’ll get is a mountain of misinformation. [/quote] That’s true. And if you question the wrong person, all you’ll get is a mountain of misinformation. (Just ask the Durham Police Department) And if you read the wrong web site, all you’ll get is a mountain of misinformation. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987/32 "2007-12-23T18:05:23Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] In the real world of torture, that answer just won’t do. They expect that answer, and will continue questioning you until they get an answer they are satisfied with. The usual response, _eventually_, is to spew out anything you think they want to hear in hopes that they will stop. [/quote] Ok . . . so what? > [@](#): > > Torture doesn’t work, period. It would seem to have worked on me in the situation described. Your argument that it would not work relies on the assumption that I didn’t have the information the torturer wanted. Well, duh. > [@](#): > > If your intelligence is good enough that you _know_ that your captive has some specific valuable information, it most likely because you already have most of that information due to an inside source, either human or electronic. That’s not necessarily true. Situations where you know (or are pretty confident) that the subject has some information that you don’t have are pretty easy to hypothesize. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987/33 "2007-12-23T18:06:57Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] 1. _24_ is only a television series. [/QUOTE] I’ve never seen a single episode, so if you want to refer to that show, it might help for you to make your point a little more explicitly. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987/34 "2007-12-23T18:09:42Z")
Dantooine. They’re on Dantooine. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987/35 "2007-12-23T18:14:47Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] 1. Time bombs just aren’t all that common because the chance is too great that they’ll be found. Suicide bombers are the “in” thing nowadays. 2. If the “bad guys” decide to go the time bomb route, the timer will be set for a matter of minutes, not hours, and you’re never gonna get that info in time. 3. _24_ is only a television series. [/QUOTE] This and the other points about being quickly able to verify the answers (without blowing your chances at a repeat, thanks - _oh right, cutting the wrong wire blows up the bomb right now. how very useful_) combined with the fact that you would already have to be pretty certain that the victim has the info you’re looking for seems to me to constrain the usefulness (as defined by the OP) of torture to a very limited set of circumstances. Of course we can make interesting movies where the circumstances are _just so_, but do we have records of any events where torture was indeed “successfully” used to get useful intelligence, preferably under circumstances where that info was not available using more civilized alternatives? For instance, in situations where the military needs to have access to a vault, I would be surprised if they’d need the combination, given a day or so. Just curious, since the whole debate so far seems to be based on hypothetical examples. ---
**Author:** ![George\_Kaplin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@George\_Kaplin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/George_Kaplin)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987/36 "2007-12-23T18:20:21Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] That’s true. And if you question the wrong person, all you’ll get is a mountain of misinformation. (Just ask the Durham Police Department) And if you read the wrong web site, all you’ll get is a mountain of misinformation. [/quote] I don’t think that’s a workable comparison. An innocent person in an ordinary police station will likely just reiterate his protestations until his lawyer shows up. Needless to say, the torturers dungeon admits of no such safeguards. [QUOTE=xtisme] And by the same token, tortures someone who DOES have the information and is highly motivated to not tell you anything…and again, the result seems to be that you’ll get either nothing or mis-information. It seems like a lose/lose situation to me unless you have some independent way to verify the information being gathered…in which case it seems like a rather pointless exercise. [/quote] Very true. IMO, what little practical application torture may have evaporates when considered outside of contrived ‘ticking-bomb’ situations. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987/37 "2007-12-23T18:30:35Z")
[QUOTE=Malodorous] An interesting read. Actually sort of embarassing that in a thread asking for “proof” of tortures effectiveness or lack thereof, the only person whose actually posted something that wasn’t just a personal opinion was a guest linking to a LOTR board. The SDMB doesn’t allow the cut and paste of whole articles, I’m not sure if they allow links to such cut and pastes, but just in case (or in case the owners of the linked to message board have a similar rule and remove the linked post), here’s a more legit link to the same article from the [authors website](http://www.budiansky.com/truth.htm) Welcome to the SDMB [/QUOTE] A most interesting article. After some searching I found the referenced 1943 memo regarding interrogations of Japanese POWs - [Warning - PDF](http://www.jenharvey.net/docs/Sherwood_Moran_Report.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![vison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e47774/32.png) [@vison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vison)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987/38 "2007-12-23T18:44:11Z")
[QUOTE=Malodorous] Welcome to the SDMB [/QUOTE] Thank you for the welcome. And more thanks for the proper link. I am not particularly adept at these things and if I err, it is incompetence, not flouting the rules. I thought the article in question was extremely interesting. Without any personal experience of torture, I have always thought I’d cave in immediately, and if anyone so much as\* looked\* at my fingernails, I’d give them whatever they wanted. No need for water, boards, or Saran wrap to make me spill the beans. There was another very interesting post on that previously-mentioned-LOTR website, concerning an interview with an author named, as I recall, Flinn. Mr. Flinn writes Clancy-style thrillers and is, therefore, an expert in such matters as torture, Islamic terrorism, the security of the USA, etc. He asked, as I recall, if the man who plotted 9/11 had been waterboarded and the events of that day had thereby been prevented, would anyone object? It was called a “thought experiment”. I called it something else, but being a polite woman, I refrain from posting that here! If I have time later I’ll see if I can dig it up. ---
**Author:** ![ArizonaTeach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@ArizonaTeach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArizonaTeach)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987/39 "2007-12-23T18:46:44Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] In the real world of torture, that answer just won’t do. They expect that answer, and will continue questioning you until they get an answer they are satisfied with. [/QUOTE] That operates under an assumption, and I wouldn’t even begin to guess how many situations this would occur in, in which the person being interrogated truly has no idea what the answer is. But in “the real world of torture,” answering questions like, “who is your contact” or “how are you contacted” or “what have you done” would actually have an answer. Questions such as “Where did you get the gun that you were using to shoot at us?” or “How did you know where the convoy was going to be when you personally attacked us” or “What were you going to do with that bomb you were wiring when we caught you?” are going to have answers that the person could not **not** know the answer to, and “I don’t know” isn’t going to be one of them. ---
**Author:** ![vison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e47774/32.png) [@vison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vison)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987/40 "2007-12-23T18:54:44Z")
Hm. I’m obviously out of the loop here, since it is not Flinn, but Vince Flynn and his novel “Protect and Defend” is apparently a best-seller. The interview/review is in the 16 November 2007 issue of the Washington Times. Since I may wind up linking to copyright or subscription-only material, I won’t attempt a link. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-proof-torture-works/430987.md?page=3)