# Is there any real hard film sci fi? SPOILERS **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 8, 2012, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814 "2012-01-08T12:01:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814/21 "2012-01-09T00:02:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > My personal favorite here is [_Wings of Honneamise_](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093207/). It’s set in an alternate world (but not one particularly different from ours), and tells the story of the project, in that world, to launch the first man into space… Interesting. I’ve seen _Wings of Honneamise_ as more of an Alternate Earth type of story, rather Soft. It spends quite a bit of time on the politics, religion, and culture of the planet, and I do believe it had a cold-war type space race that had political nuances. I thought it was interesting how the main character approached religion after he bumped into that preacher girl and adopted an interest in that faith and an adoption/internalization of some of it’s teachings or practices, though it seem to stop short of an actual conversion. There are other little social things to notice - I believe that several male characters wear skirts or dresses as if it was perfectly normal, which it apparently is there. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814/22 "2012-01-09T00:10:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Interesting. I’ve seen Wings of Honneamise as more of an Alternate Earth type of story, rather Soft. It spends quite a bit of time on the politics, religion, and culture of the planet, and I do believe it had a cold-war type space race that had political nuances. Well, it is soft, in the sense that most of the drama comes from the human element rather than from the technology per se, and very little scientific knowledge is needed to appreciate the film. But I don’t think that “hard SF” and “soft SF”, or even “good hard SF” and “good soft SF”, are actually mutually exclusive, and all of the tech portrayed is clearly possible, given that we did the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uosdwis_R.Dewoh)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814/23 "2012-01-09T00:37:24Z")
There was a BBC show a couple of years back called [Space Odyssey](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Odyssey_%28TV_series%29) that tried to give a realistic depiction of what an interplanetary expedition would be like. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814/24 "2012-01-09T00:37:30Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Well, it is soft, in the sense that most of the drama comes from the human element rather than from the technology per se, and very little scientific knowledge is needed to appreciate the film. But I don’t think that “hard SF” and “soft SF”, or even “good hard SF” and “good soft SF”, are actually mutually exclusive, and all of the tech portrayed is clearly possible, given that we did the same thing. I agree. There isn’t a bright line between Soft and Hard SF. I’d also say that there isn’t a bright line between SF and non-SF either. For example, 20000 Leagues Under the Sea seems to have been, and be, considered SF, but more recent submarine stories such as The Hunt for Red October aren’t, even if they have some advanced tech of tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814/25 "2012-01-09T00:47:19Z")
**Gattaca.** ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814/26 "2012-01-09T00:57:18Z")
[**Moontrap**](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097911/plotsummary) didn’t get much publicity but I think it might meet your definition of hard sci-fi. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814/27 "2012-01-09T00:59:31Z")
Although I consider time travel impossible, I think **Primer** qualifies. Well done indy film, with some verisimilitude. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814/28 "2012-01-09T01:06:30Z")
Avatar. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814/29 "2012-01-09T01:15:58Z")
Thought of another one - “Blade Runner.” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814/30 "2012-01-09T01:17:45Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > **Marooned** – by test pilot-turned-novelist Martin Caidin (whose novel _Cyborg_ gave us _The Six Million Dollar Man_, although I don’t think it’s his fault). Kinda clunky and boring, but certainly not impossible. They changed his _Ironman 1_ into an Apollo capsule for the film. This is the movie that convinced the Russians to do the Apollo-Soyuz mission. While I have both versions of the novel (the one where a Gemini capsule is used for the rescue and the version based on the movie) I wouldn’t really call this science fiction, since there is no extrapolation from what was currently feasible and on the drawing boards. It being set in space doesn’t cut it - you might as well call **Apollo XIII** science fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814/31 "2012-01-09T01:25:13Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If you accept the premise of Children of Men, it has a reasonably realistic view of a near future, dying world. My husband and I are having a discussion about whether or not “Children of Men” actually is science fiction. I say it is - the science, while not discussed in the film, is a given - _something_ has happened to humankind, and I assume that there has been endless research and work done to solve the problem. Jim says it isn’t science fiction because there’s no science in the movie at all - it’s just about what humans do when this happens. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814/32 "2012-01-09T01:29:45Z")
Outland starring Sean Connery was entirely plausible in the distant future. Essentially High Noon set in space. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814/33 "2012-01-09T01:52:41Z")
> [@](#): > > It being set in space doesn’t cut it - you might as well call Apollo XIII science fiction. I would, if it weren’t for the fact that it was (mostly) true. It doesn’t fail the S of SF; it fails on the F. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814/34 "2012-01-09T02:16:25Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > This is a good question. > > If someone did a movie adaptaion of _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ **properly** , then maybe we would have a good hard SF movie. > > Heinlein went out of his way to make the story believable and yet fascinating. > One of my favorites. It’s mostly talking. Wonderful book, but would make a terrible film. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814/35 "2012-01-09T02:19:19Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > While I have both versions of the novel (the one where a Gemini capsule is used for the rescue and the version based on the movie) I wouldn’t really call this science fiction, since there is no extrapolation from what was currently feasible and on the drawing boards. It being set in space doesn’t cut it - you might as well call **Apollo XIII** science fiction. The OP’s restrictions (too tight, foy my taste, by the way) don’t allow for much else – there’s very little straight extrapolation out there.. This is definitely fiction – Appollo 13 was dramatization of fact. This is fiction based on existing science in which that is essential to the plot, which is the sort of definition Campbell used.(I _told_ you in my first post that ome people would object that some of it wasn’t SF. Campbell, as I noted, called _Fail Safe_ science fiction) By the same arguments, James Michener’s **Space** 9and the TV movie made from it) defuinitely qualify. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814/36 "2012-01-09T02:53:15Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Avatar. I can’t let this go by without comment. By what definition of “Hard SF” can you classify a story that revolves around **UNOBTAINIUM** as “Hard SF?” I’ll even ignore the mind/body rebuild or transference, and the implicit FTL travel, either of which I’d normally consider a clear strike against a story being “Hard SF.” Here’s a free clue for you: [Unobtainium](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unobtainium), and it’s close relative Handwavium, both emerged as fannish commentary about fictitious elements or materials that authors or producers use in SF to break known physical laws left, right and center. The acknowledged presence of either in a story is a clear sign that we’re into the realm of pure fantasy without any attempt to pay attention to pesky things like known physical laws. As an aside, I’ve nothing against science fantasy. It can be a good deal of fun. I’m not commenting on whether _Avatar_ is a good film. I just cannot understand how it can be labelled “hard SF” by any stretch of the imagination. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814/37 "2012-01-09T05:11:23Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > I’ll even ignore the mind/body rebuild or transference, and the implicit FTL travel, either of which I’d normally consider a clear strike against a story being “Hard SF.” The rest of your post is correct. But Hard SF can have one “impossible by current science” and still be SF- and of course FTL is a prime example. Foundation trilogy, e.g. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814/38 "2012-01-09T05:20:55Z")
The problem is that the OP’s definition of “hard” is also subjective. For example, the more we learn about the effects of long term, zero-g exposure beyond the magnetosphere, the less likely it is that colonization or even a base on Mars is even feasible with technology achievable within the next 20-30 years. We already know cellular growth isn’t normal in zero-g and that radiation exposure can be bad. But this is touted as “realistic” because, hey, it’s just landing a few guys with supplies on Mars, right? Just give them a bit of lead shielding. To take an example from the OP, from an actual scientific POV, I find the idea that we could realistically transcribe and reproduce the mental state of a human being about as plausible as establishing permanent, self-sustaining human colonies on Mars. Neither is likely to be completely implausible with additional research, but both are well outside our current capabilities. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814/39 "2012-01-09T05:23:27Z")
A fair point, and one reason why I tend to hate trying to rigorously define hard and soft SF. I’ve never found a rigorous definition of hard SF that has ever been completely satisfying for me. Normally, I have no trouble with a story having that “one impossible by current science” divergence. FTL, in particular, is often given a bye, as you said. But during even numbered hours, it’s a disqualification for being hard SF, and during odd numbered hours it’s not a problem at all. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen other people wrestle with that particular fillip for where to draw the line for hard vs. soft SF. As I get older, I find myself being drawn more and more towards a very strict definition of what hard SF should be. To the point where, in general, I no longer consider any SF with an FTL capability to count towards that - no matter how impressive the technical factors might be otherwise. I do admit that’s a personal preference, and one that I know is debated in many circles. Whoops, I was trying to get this in as a direct response to **DrDeth** ’s post. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814/40 "2012-01-09T05:25:45Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Surely if you’re requiring that everything be tech that already exists, it’s just “fi”, not “sci-fi” (hard or not)? Sci-fi surely has to include imaginary stuff; otherwise it’s a true story or it’s just contemporary fiction. See the [Mohs Scale of Science Fiction Hardness.](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MohsScaleOfScienceFictionHardness) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-hard-film-sci-fi-spoilers/608814.md?page=3)