# Is there any real risk that law enforcement or the military would side with a rightwing insurrection **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056 "2014-04-26T15:11:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056/21 "2014-04-27T21:17:31Z")
Definitely not, although the ideological bias of the military does not necessarily have to remain conservative forever, especially if an effort is made to make it more left-wing, which is something all banana republic leaders make sure they do before ordering the military to put down their political opponents. Or they use the current tactic, which is to just arm your supporters with baseball bats and have them break up anti-government protests. Then you don’t need the military. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056/22 "2014-04-27T21:21:23Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Keep in mind that sheriffs are elected politicians . . . Yeah, why **is** that, still? Seems kinda archaic. Heading a modern law-enforcement agency is supposed to be an apolitical, administrative job with no public-policy discretion. City police chiefs only answer to the (elected) city government, and can be fired by it; why should county sheriffs answer to the voters and have an independent electoral mandate? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056/23 "2014-04-27T21:23:53Z")
Heck, some towns elect coroners. My own view is that executives shouldn’t be elected. Only legislatures. Executives carry out the law. That should be apolitical. So if we’re going to elect Presidents, governors, and mayors, why not elect sheriffs? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056/24 "2014-04-27T21:26:37Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s legal to talk about speeding, taking drugs, and using people as human shields. It’s illegal to actually do any of those things. Nitpick: In some limited circumstances, [it can be crime to **encourage** people to commit crimes.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solicitation#United_States) See [_The Accused_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Accused_(1988_film)) and the RL case it’s based on. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056/25 "2014-04-27T21:28:26Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > There’s nothing illegal about putting women in front of a group so that _if others started shooting at the group_, more outrage would be generated, nor about speaking about it. If it had actually been done, and any of those women had died, the protestors probably would be liable under the felony-murder rule and the LEOs certainly would not be. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056/26 "2014-04-27T21:30:45Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The key point is most conservatives are not radicals. Only a small radical fringe want to change the current system back to some real or imagined past system. What the majority of conservatives want is to maintain the status quo - and people like this are not the makings of a revolution. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s been a long, long time since that described American conservatives. People like that would be considered moderates or liberals, not conservatives. Now, now, you’re both right; see the [Pew Political Typology 2011](http://www.people-press.org/2011/05/04/typology-group-profiles/) and compare the “Staunch Conservatives” (the Tea Party’s base) with the “Main Street Republicans.” ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056/27 "2014-04-27T21:34:22Z")
I want to change things pretty radically, but I’m not going to overthrow the government to do it, because I recognize,as do all conservatives, that we need the rule of law to get what we want. The only way we’d take up arms is if the government chucked the rule of law in favor of the executive’s whims. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056/28 "2014-04-27T21:47:13Z")
Dammit, I was only 2 days away from retirement when this thread was started. The answer is in the term ‘popular uprising’ as in supported by a majority of the populace. The Bundy event had not reached that level yet, but there were enough people involved that proceeding with enforcement would have been a government disaster, so they decided to withdraw and seek a different solution. At what point a similar refusal would become a shooting thing is problematic. Depends upon the support for the issue. I do not believe that law enforcement, either federal or local, are prepared to fire upon its citizens. So you have a point of confrontation, a point of decision, and a point of action or withdrawal. And this usually results in an endless siege situation, waiting the situation out, negotiations, and usually a peaceful outcome. But if the situation cannot be resolved by a swat type team, and there is a high likelihood of armed rebellion, the law enforcement agencies will pull out. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056/29 "2014-04-27T21:53:54Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Definitely not, although the ideological bias of the military does not necessarily have to remain conservative forever, especially if an effort is made to make it more left-wing, which is something all banana republic leaders make sure they do before ordering the military to put down their political opponents. Most banana-republic leaders are RW, y’know. See what happened to Manuel Zelaya in Honduras. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056/30 "2014-04-27T21:54:56Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Heck, some towns elect coroners. > > My own view is that executives shouldn’t be elected. Only legislatures. Executives carry out the law. That should be apolitical. So if we’re going to elect Presidents, governors, and mayors, why not elect sheriffs? Because sheriffs aren’t **that** kind of executive; their writ is supposed to be limited to law-enforcement, not general political leadership and policymaking for the community. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056/31 "2014-04-27T21:56:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If it had actually been done, and any of those women had died, the protestors probably would be liable under the felony-murder rule and the LEOs certainly would not be. What violent felony were they committing? (Assuming that the Felony Murder law in that jurisdiction requires that, most do). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056/32 "2014-04-27T21:57:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I believe that it all depends on the context. I don’t think police or the military would ever join an anti-government organization . . . I’d say the [Oath Keepers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_Keepers) counts, and so does Sheriff Mack’s [Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association](http://cspoa.org/). ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056/33 "2014-04-27T22:02:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Most banana-republic leaders are RW, y’know. See what happened to Manuel Zelaya in Honduras. you’re right. I made the point sloppily. Which was that banana republic leaders always make sure to mold the military in their ideological image. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056/34 "2014-04-27T22:04:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Because sheriffs aren’t **that** kind of executive; their writ is supposed to be limited to law-enforcement, not general political leadership and policymaking for the community. There is some room for political leadership. Nick Navarro down here in Broward County certainly acted the part, although that’s not a very good argument FOR electing sheriffs. Like most elected leaders, he had no worries about rule of law, only what he thought would make him popular. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056/35 "2014-04-28T00:25:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There is some room for political leadership. Nick Navarro down here in Broward County certainly acted the part, although that’s not a very good argument FOR electing sheriffs. Like most elected leaders, he had no worries about rule of law, only what he thought would make him popular. A better and better-known example would be Sheriff Arpaio. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056/36 "2014-04-28T13:19:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If it had actually been done, and any of those women had died, the protestors probably would be liable under the felony-murder rule and the LEOs certainly would not be. How’s that? What felony would the protesters have been committing? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056/37 "2014-04-28T14:47:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If it had actually been done, and any of those women had died, the protestors probably would be liable under the felony-murder rule and the LEOs certainly would not be. What?? This is in Nevada, yes? Under NRS 200.030(1)(b), felony murder is defined as a murder “Committed in the perpetration or attempted perpetration of sexual assault, kidnapping, arson, robbery, burglary, invasion of the home, sexual abuse of a child, sexual molestation of a child under the age of 14 years or child abuse.” Which predicate felony do you contend applies here? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056/38 "2014-04-28T15:09:22Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What violent felony were they committing? (Assuming that the Felony Murder law in that jurisdiction requires that, most do). > [@Human\_Action](#): > > How’s that? What felony would the protesters have been committing? > [@Bricker](#): > > What?? > > This is in Nevada, yes? Under NRS 200.030(1)(b), felony murder is defined as a murder “Committed in the perpetration or attempted perpetration of sexual assault, kidnapping, arson, robbery, burglary, invasion of the home, sexual abuse of a child, sexual molestation of a child under the age of 14 years or child abuse.” > > Which predicate felony do you contend applies here? On reflection, probably none – that is, a sufficiently clever and audacious DOJ lawyer might be able to come up with some federal felony charge to shoehorn/bootstrap into a predicate (especially if someone on Bundy’s side shot first, an eventuality the BLM was determined to avoid), but it probably would not suffice under state law. Good thing too, I suppose, or else the surviving Kent State protesters might have gone down for felony murder just because some of them threw rocks first. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056/39 "2014-04-28T20:37:32Z")
What constitutes insurrection? Does it require actual acts of violence, or does the threat of violence suffice? There were no shots fired in the Bundy circus. But there was certainly the threat of violence, and even photos of at least one (or two?) protesters aiming guns. The BLM backed down, arguably under the threat of violence. Does that constitute insurrection? Isn’t there also some law, or court decision, forbidding “confronting the government” (or is that just a synonym for insurrection)? Was that happening here? And, if any of those hypothetical female human shields had been killed, would felony murder apply because there was an insurrection in progress? Yes, the law that **Bricker** cited doesn’t mention insurrection as a predicate. But might not any court have interpreted the law to extend to _any_ sufficiently violent felony (for whatever value of “sufficient” the court sees fit) as a predicate to felony murder? We haven’t heard the last of this case yet. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056/40 "2014-05-01T18:45:01Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > Yeah, cops are especially attached to their medical insurance, time and a half overtime, personal days, paid vacations, and 20 years until full retirement. The chances of them overturning the applecart and putting all that at risk is about as unlikely an event as you can imagine, at least on a large scale. That money thing or perhaps because they have devoted their entire adult lives to protecting the rule of law, our government and the public at large. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-real-risk-that-law-enforcement-or-the-military-would-side-with-a-rightwing-insurrection/687056.md?page=3)