# Is there any realistic way to fight global warming? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 28, 2013, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345 "2013-12-28T07:38:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345/81 "2013-12-31T18:48:02Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > My biggest problem with wind and solar is that people think it can actually fulfill our needs and let’s us ignore that scaaaary nuclear power. Not a problem for me as I support nuclear power even if solar and wind are making progress. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345/82 "2013-12-31T18:50:21Z")
You can’t fix a problem if you don’t understand the problem. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345/83 "2013-12-31T19:00:03Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > You can’t fix a problem if you don’t understand the problem. If people do not understand a problem that they have in the stomach it does not follow than then they should look for help with a herbalist rather than a gastroenterologist. Do not deny the existence of experts and what they report is happening when all the data is considered. Doctors would miss a few items in the diagnosis but the recommended solution is the one to follow as it is the most supported by the information available. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345/84 "2013-12-31T19:43:32Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > If people do not understand a problem that they have in the stomach it does not follow than then they should look for help with a herbalist rather than a gastroenterologist. Do not deny the existence of experts and what they report is happening when all the data is considered. Doctors would miss a few items in the diagnosis but the recommended solution is the one to follow as it is the most supported by the information available. I admire your sincerity, and your earnest appreciation for “experts.” I note that your definition of an “expert” is someone who agrees with you. 🙂 I want to know if you think that total energy needs will drop. Do you think new renewables will simply add to the total amount of energy we use so even more of us can live even more comfortably, or will new renewables supplant current fossil fuel use? I am unpersuaded by what Germany can do in the same way I’m unpersuaded that Greece will follow their fiscal discipline. It’s not a question of whether it can be done in theory, or whether an isolated example would work somewhere. What’s the evidence there’s a realistic way to fight (and win) AGW at a world level? If I get rid of a polluting plant making LGB toy trains in Germany, and it moves to China where it makes the same toy trains that I still buy, my success here in Germany at reducing AGW pollution is a bit of a fake success, is it not? I recognize it’s frustrating news that we are not going to sacrifice individually for a collective good, but we aren’t, and that’s what it would take. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345/85 "2013-12-31T19:55:56Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I admire your sincerity, and your earnest appreciation for “experts.” I note that your definition of an “expert” is someone who agrees with you. 🙂 Not accurate, more than once I reported that I have concerns about GMO’s but I yield to the recommendations of experts in that matter. One then has to criticize corporations like Monsanto with the mess they do by ignoring that evolution is not making that idea of crops with specific resistance to their pesticides an idea that can be sustained for long. But on the matter of GMS being overall safe for humans, I do follow what the experts recommend. So, so much for your affirmation here. BTW the “news” of not sacrificing should be kept by yourself as your inattention shows that Gore and many others are willing to make changes even though it was not their overall point. Incidentally in the full video of “Earth, the operator’s manual” by Richard Alley and others shows that China is indeed getting the hint that killing their population with contamination will not fly for long, even they are changing. [http://earththeoperatorsmanual.com/feature-video/earth-the-operators-manual](http://earththeoperatorsmanual.com/feature-video/earth-the-operators-manual) ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345/86 "2013-12-31T19:58:30Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Not a problem for me as I support nuclear power even if solar and wind are making progress. Nuclear is dead, politically. Wind and solar are lame, functionally. Everyone wants them, but not in their back yard, and not if they cost more. And no one is going to buy into some bogus accounting that wants to make them pay more for carbon because of some perceived future damage. Their own back yards have to be on fire before they’ll cough up for sprinklers. There’s a reason we are making no progress on actually decreasing the total amount of AGW gasses: we are not going to give up living richer lives now for the sake of the polar bears. We are not scared enough of being drowned by rising oceans to give up first class hotels and jetting off to our vacations. Beyond polar bears and rising sea levels, the AGW alarmists are a little light on ammo regarding the horrible proximate consequences of AGW…no one cares about future consequences. The Big Comet might obviate any need to worry about those… If we can solve AGW without too much personal sacrifice, we’re all good with that. But we can’t, and we’re actually not feeling any pain from any proximate consequences right now. So…look for a lotta chatting and no actual substantive solutions. Heck; we can’t even get our fiscal houses in order, and from an impact-to-society standpoint, that sucker is a helluva lot more dangerous than AGW. You really need to get on board with my point about Al Gore. Don’t you get it? We love to participate in these delicious Great Causes. We are just not going to actually, personally, live less large. It is very addicting to be the Prophet of Doom. And proselytizing the Great Unwashed for almost any deeply held conviction is equally tasty. But, in practice, right now there are too many people wanting to live better right now. They aren’t going to wait until the energy grid gets fixed. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345/87 "2013-12-31T20:08:37Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Nuclear is dead, politically. This is something we can–and must, IMO–change. In every way except emotional nuclear power is a better option than anything even remotely possible atm. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345/88 "2013-12-31T20:15:53Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Nuclear is dead, politically. > > Wind and solar are lame, functionally. Everyone wants them, but not in their back yard, and not if they cost more. Once again, that view is based on ignorance, that is changing. Lots of people are going for solar and their number are increasing, the opposition is not only coming from the power companies noticing that their customers are now saving lots of money. Some opposition is coming from people that are not aware of the changes and that even the traditional point of “solar making property values fall” is not true nowadays. > **[Trouble in Missouri: The fight for solar rights](https://www.renewableenergymagazine.com/interviews/trouble-in-missouri-the-fight-for-solar-20130801)** > > When Jim and Frances Babb tried to install solar panels on their property, they ran into serious opposition. Thereafter followed a fight for solar rights that is still going on, an... > [@](#): > > What kind of opposition is being mobilised against solar in Missouri and by who? > > Even though Missouri derives 82% of its energy from coal, I’m seeing opposition more at the grassroots level. Homeowners who live in fancy neighborhoods want to preserve the visual image of their community that they spent a great deal of money to buy into. Any kind of deviation from the norm is considered undesirable, if not harmful to those not ready to make the switch to solar energy. In a nutshell I’ve gotten more opposition from highly educated, high income white collar professionals than anyone else. People who I know are smart enough to educate themselves about the benefits of solar but either chose not to or chose to hold onto their stereotypes about solar energy. > > Has there been any challenge(s) to the claims made by these bodies/individuals, e.g. regarding devaluation of properties due to aesthetics of solar? > > There have been all kinds of studies done by governmental agencies as well as private companies that show that solar improves property values and that homes with solar sell faster than those without it. Furthermore it’s been noted that neighborhoods without solar sell for less than those that are allowed to use solar energy. Despite all of the information that’s readily available, people are still holding onto their traditional values. For decades homeowners have put more money into the front façade of their home than any other side to make it look pretty from the curb. Popular TV shows propagate the notion that anything ugly lowers property values. As a state we simply cannot let our energy policies be dictated by ideas depicted on popular Home and Garden TV shows. > **[HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News](https://www.huffpost.com/)** > > Read the latest headlines, news stories, and opinion from Politics, Entertainment, Life, Perspectives, and more. > [@](#): > > \*\*Solar Power In The U.S. Becoming A More Popular, Cost-Saving Option For Homeowners \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345/89 "2013-12-31T21:38:25Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Once again, from a few years ago and remember the IF in their report, it seems to the the if is being taken care of in Germany and other places. No it isn’t - you can’t fix the problem of solar being uneconomical with subsidies. Germany heavily subsidizes solar - that’s the point, because it is not competitive with other energy sources. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345/90 "2013-12-31T22:01:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No it isn’t - you can’t fix the problem of solar being uneconomical with subsidies. Germany heavily subsidizes solar - that’s the point, because it is not competitive with other energy sources. > > Regards, > Shodan Not accurate, Germany is in the process of stopping the generous subsidies in solar, it is true that many contrarian sources hailed the news as a sign that solar was going away in Germany, but in reality the reason is that the progress shown in its competitiveness is the cause of why the generous subsidies are going away and more modest ones will remain. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345/91 "2014-01-01T01:12:36Z")
If we could but harness it, we could electrify South America solely with GIGO’s patience. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345/92 "2014-01-01T01:44:58Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > it is true that many contrarian sources hailed the news as a sign that solar was going away in Germany, but in reality the reason is that the progress shown in its competitiveness is the cause of why the generous subsidies are going away and more modest ones will remain. I still can’t understand why some people are so anti-solar. That Germany, not the most sunny country by far, has come so far with a clean source of electrical power, really seems to bother some people. “Oh it costs so much!”. Big fucking deal. So does polluting the air with coal burning. The cost is to all the people breathing the coal pollution. Never mind fucking global warming, coal is nasty dirty shit to burn. Nuclear would be better by far, except for that whole Fukushima type disaster shit that can happen. It’s fucked up on so many levels. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345/93 "2014-01-01T01:55:59Z")
I leave my refrigerator door open all the time. You’re welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345/94 "2014-01-01T02:35:11Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > I still can’t understand why some people are so anti-solar. That Germany, not the most sunny country by far, has come so far with a clean source of electrical power, really seems to bother some people. > > “Oh it costs so much!”. Big fucking deal. So does polluting the air with coal burning. The cost is to all the people breathing the coal pollution. Never mind fucking global warming, coal is nasty dirty shit to burn. > > Nuclear would be better by far, except for that whole Fukushima type disaster shit that can happen. It’s fucked up on so many levels. Due to Ontario’s feed in tariff program my electricity costs have gone up by 30% in the last few years, and are now scheduled to go up by another 40% in the next few years. I live in the country. I have no natural gas service. My house is heated by a forced air electric furnace. Fortunately I spent $5,000 to install a wood stove in my basement about 8 years ago, but still I now spend about $6,000 a year on electricity for a 1,700 square foot bungalow. Fuck solar and wind energy and the shitty returns on the shitty technology. We need more nuclear plants, and we need them now. Solar panels are a fucking joke and make up about 2% of our total energy requirements. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345/95 "2014-01-01T06:45:35Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > If we could but harness it, we could electrify South America solely with GIGO’s patience. When the fire of evangelism for your Great Cause burns as hotly as it does for Gb, I’m sure the motivation is more a passion for the Lost than it is patience. Alas, though; I see no numbers to reassure me GIGO’s passion for the Cause has any substance. Which numbers, GIGObuster, reassure you? How much have the successes of new renewables cut down on fossils so far, and how much do you see them cutting down on fossils Real Soon Now? Which sacrifices, by whom, of the comforts of modern living will be made until we get the new renewables in place? Which AGW proximate catastrophe will be so persuasive that we collectively decide to pay carbon taxes? The devil lives in those details, and she’s causing the Message to fall on pretty deaf ears. The default decision made to date is that AGW is a serious concern, but not one that rises to the level of needing something substantive done. A call, I say; a call for another Global Conference! With whitepapers from Experts, signed off on by Scientists. And more pictures of some lonely polar bear floating 60 miles offshore on a rapidly melting ice floe. But not a demotion from my private jet to Amtrek… ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345/96 "2014-01-01T06:54:22Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > \ Everyone wants them, but not in their back yard, and not if they cost more. And no one is going to buy into some bogus accounting that wants to make them pay more for carbon because of some perceived future damage. Their own back yards have to be on fire before they’ll cough up for sprinklers. > > There’s a reason we are making no progress on actually decreasing the total amount of AGW gasses: we are not going to give up living richer lives now for the sake of the polar bears.\ > If we can solve AGW without too much personal sacrifice, we’re all good with that. But we can’t, and we’re actually not feeling any pain from any proximate consequences right now. So…look for a lotta chatting and no actual substantive solutions.\ I’m afraid you’re speaking for a lot of people, but certainly not all. My husband and I make choices that don’t necessarily benefit us that we perceive as energy-wise choices, and we’re far from alone. For my take on this discussion, one of the first things that needs to happen to start having a serious discussion about realistic ways to fix global warming is that the US needs to fix their political system so lobby groups (the most powerful of which is the fossil fuels industry) can’t buy politicians any longer. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345/97 "2014-01-01T07:34:27Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I’m afraid you’re speaking for a lot of people, but certainly not all. My husband and I make choices that don’t necessarily benefit us that we perceive as energy-wise choices, and we’re far from alone. > > For my take on this discussion, one of the first things that needs to happen to start having a serious discussion about realistic ways to fix global warming is that the US needs to fix their political system so lobby groups (the most powerful of which is the fossil fuels industry) can’t buy politicians any longer. He may be speaking for a lot of people, but as he showed in his prose, lots of type but not anything new in the last post from the **Chief**. As for you are talking in your last paragraph, I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345/98 "2014-01-01T15:25:45Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > He may be speaking for a lot of people, but as he showed in his prose, lots of type but not anything new in the last post from the **Chief**. > > As for you are talking in your last paragraph, I agree. My “prose” is asking for your insights, and your numbers. It’s not clear to me you have any. You just have a passion to promote the message of Doom, and make sure we all we know we are big sinners and that we should all believe there is a way to salvation. What horrible consequence of AGW is so horrible that the masses should do something now instead of dealing with the climate change consequences as they arrive? Who will sacrifice, and how, and for what time window? The time window of 2 generations out? 4 generations? We’re already stealing money from one generation out because we are motivated to place our current comfort first. Who will vote for a carbon tax to force new renewables? Given that new renewables so far simply add to the total amount of available energy without supplanting fossil fuels (at a global level), and given that the appetite for energy is insatiable because so much of the world’s population still needs to be made richer, what is the evidence that we can realistically diminish AGW gasses using new renewables? You’re all talk. You’re all about how promising is this approach, and how well we’ve done with that problem. But you haven’t got a clue on how to realistically win the win a fight against AGW. Don’t feel bad; neither has anyone else, and that’s why we’ll just piddle along, muddling through while we live as well as we can. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345/99 "2014-01-01T15:43:53Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Germany is in the process of stopping the generous subsidies in solar Because solar is un-economical, as I have already mentioned. > [@](#): > > The government argues that subsidies have driven up electricity prices for German consumers while propping up solar-panel prices for domestic manufacturers. [Cite](http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-03-29/germany-cuts-solar-aid-to-curb-prices-panel-installations). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345/100 "2014-01-01T17:20:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because solar is un-economical, as I have already mentioned. [Cite](http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-03-29/germany-cuts-solar-aid-to-curb-prices-panel-installations). > > Regards, > Shodan If it is uneconomical then solar installations should have stopped from the last year you report to the new reports that show solar continuing to grow and increasing the energy output. Really this is pathetic, the industry people want to continue and it is the politicians who are deciding, but the reasons the politicians (and in the opposition other politicians do not agree) have are mostly related to the costs of managing the grid. And the main German government having to deal with the local groups that are going forward. > **[3 Reasons Germans Are Kicking Ass & Taking Names With Renewable Energy -...](https://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/23/3-reasons-germans-going-renewable-costs/)** > > Sign up for daily news updates from CleanTechnica on email. Or follow us on Google News! Germany is racing past 20% renewable energy on its electricity grid, but news stories stridently warn that this new wind and solar power is costing... > [@](#): > > 1. It’s about the cost, not the price > > Most news stories focus on the cost of electricity in Germany, which has some of the highest rates per kilowatt-hour in the world. But they don’t note that the average German electricity bill – about $100 a month – is the same as for most Americans. Germans are much more efficient users of energy than most, so they can afford higher rates without having higher bills. (Note to self: check out options for energy efficiency). > > 1. It’s about vision > > Germany doesn’t just have an incremental approach to renewable energy, but a commitment supported by 84 percent of residents to get to 100% renewable energy “as quickly as possible.” A few U.S. states have renewable energy visions (e.g. 33% by 2020, 25% by 2025) that approach Germany’s, but they’re mired in the notion that despite enormous savings to society in terms of health and environmental benefits, renewable energy shouldn’t cost any more today than conventional, dirty energy on the utility bill. Germans have taken the long view (about energy security, price volatility, etc). > > 1. It’s about ownership > > I lied in #1. Support for Germany’s renewable energy quest isn’t about cost of energy, but about the opportunity to own a slice of the energy system. Millions of Germans are building their retirement nest egg by individually or collectively owning a share of wind and solar power plants supplying clean energy to their communities. Nearly half of the country’s 63,000 megawatts of wind and solar power is owned locally, [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-realistic-way-to-fight-global-warming/677345.md?page=6)