I have the power to walk away from the spitter. I certainly don’t have the power to cuff her, arrest her, and book her with assault. Now, if the spitter decides to follow me and keep spitting, then I’d be more than happy to escalate the situation.
A cop and a citizen are far from being equals in this scenario.
By the way, I just wanted to mention that all of you who are saying it’s acceptable to hit someone in order to defend another person who’s unable to defend him- or herself, I salute you but you’d better keep an eye on the “victim.” A couple of times on cop shows and once in real life, I’ve seen someone step in to stop a man who was beating or otherwise pushing around a woman, only to have the woman attack the good samaritan from behind for (apparently) “going after her man.”
Better, perhaps, to step up and declare in a loud unafraid voice that you’re calling the cops, while suiting action to words with a cell phone.
Hey, if you think trying to walk away from the type of aggressive asshole who does stuff like spit in your face is a viable strategy and the right thing to do, that’s your choice. I wouldn’t turn my back doing it, if I were you. I’d also consider that the asshole in question will believe him/herself the “winner” and as having run you off. That is a major consideration if you are ever going to have to associate with that particular asshole again.
Also I didn’t ask you about who can arrest whom. I asked you if you think the policeman has a greater right to self-defense than you do. In other words, do you believe his life and safety are more valuable than your own?
Ok, then walk up to a female cop and slap her to teach her a lesson. That probably won’t end in civil discussion either. I don’t see what that has to do with anything.
My point is, that if it is ok to physically assault someone to teach them a lesson, but if the physical assault is spitting, then that requires deadly force? Isn’t it just easier if no one assaults anyone at all?
I’m not explaining myself very well. I’m using the woman in the video as a model. I’m sure watching that most people would agree she is the very epitome of the person MOIDALIZE thinks needs to be taught a lesson.
Well, someone “taught” her that lesson, they reached their “breaking point” and spit on her. However according to Scumpup, that means it’s now ok for the one who previously needed to be taught the lesson to teach the lesson herself, except now she can escalate the level of violence used. Then who the hell knows what happens after that?
My point is, violence only serves to beget more violence. It doesn’t teach anyone a lesson. Do you think Tiffany Pollard was thinking “Oops I should be nicer to people so they don’t spit on me. Gee this really makes me think about my actions” after she got spit on? No doubt, Tiffany Pollard was spiteful, belittling, disrespectful and just generally awful, but all spitting on her did was escalate the situation and make it more miserable for everybody. Why do people persist in thinking that physical assaults ever do anything but create more misery?
The problem with the spitting example is that spitting is physical assault and thus muddies the issue. If someone is assaulting you then you have the right to defend yourself, I don’t think anyone here is seriously arguing against that. This assumes that there is an ongoing threat to yourself or others. Someone talking about hitting you and acting in an aggressive manner would fall into the same class. If you have reason to fear for your safety then most everyone would accept that you have the right to defend yourself with appropriate measures.
But the more interesting question IMO is if someone insults you, with no direct threat to you, is there any justification in hitting them? And if so, is there a difference between men and women?
Suppose you are at a bar and someone says “Drinks for the house; except that guy because he’s a pussy.” That’s an insult with no threat to your person. Any justification for hitting them? How about if it’s a woman and she says “Drinks for the house; except for that guy because he cheated on me”?
Nope, the best thing to do at that point is just leave. But if this guy called you out with little provocation, good luck making it through the door if this guy has a serious problem with you, real or imagined. So you finish up your drink and grab your stuff and head towards the door.
And he steps out in front of you and says “Where you going, pussy?” You try to side step, but he won’t let you. “I asked you a question, where the fuck do you think you’re going pussy?”
“I’m leaving” you say, head held as high as you can.
“Yeah, well I say you ain’t going anywhere, what are you going to do about it, pussy?”
Then you’re justifed in hitting him, at least in my book. To be fair, my book is only about two pages long, and one of them is just a picture of a sailboat, but still, this person isn’t going to let things resolve quietly. Best to handle your business quickly and then get out at the first chance you get.
No, there is not any justification in hitting them.
I imagine that someone who is acting like that will follow me, so yeah, that would be an issue. The thing is, situations like that never come up for me. I try to avoid the criminally insane.
She can think whatever she wants of herself. Since she’s clearly derranged, I doubt I could change her mind anyway. And hopefully I’ll never have to associate with her again. If that’s not an option, then yeah, I see your point. I’ll do what I have to do. But I’ll do the bare minimum of what I have to do. I won’t beat her to a bloody pulp if an open-handed slap will do. I won’t slap her if calling a cop will do. And I won’t call a cop if walking away will do.
You already know the answer to that. But the cop has more means and authority to do something about it than I do. That wouldn’t change my decision, but it would change how I go about executing that decision.
Well, I have hit a man who was hitting a woman, so I would say yes. He was beating on her face and head with his fists. She was sitting down in a corner of a hallway just covering up with her arms. After I screamed at him for a bit to stop, and tried to pull him away unsuccessfully, I went into my apartment for a weapon and ended up clobbering him on the head with a tennis racket. He then turned on me and beat me rather badly until enough neighbors came out and said the cops were on the way. Then he split.
Since I split his scalp and he slashed my leg, the place looked like a slaughterhouse. Even blood on the ceiling.
In this very extreme example, not only are you justified, you have little choice. He’s going to be punching you whether you like it or not, so the smart thing to do is to punch back. This is a very silly example, though. You’ve stacked the deck.
Even in that case, unless the entire bar is supporting this asshole, you could go to the bartender and have him call the cops. You are being assaulted, and you have witnesses. The guy clearly needs to be in jail, where he can fight to his little heart’s desire.
Fair enough.
I’ve had similar experiances to my example, so I don’t know how extreme it is. There are times when the whole bar is supporting the asshole (usually out of fear and familiarity) and the bar tender isn’t going to do squat either, but it’s a case where words alone are enough to justify physical violence. As a matter of fact, the smart thing to do is hit him first and then run like hell.
Good. That’s all I was after, in response to Oakie’s triumphant assertion that his good old gun-totin’ momma would empty five rounds into a woman who spat on her 'cos “momma don’t play those games”. :rolleyes: And since you’ve clarified that, despite all the deadlyish pathogens in human sputum, you wouldn’t actually retaliate with terminal armed violence, we’re about done here. You want to start another argument about what you think would happen if you spat in a cop’s face, that’s fine by me, but it’s not what I was talking about and you can argue it with someone else.
I must be missing your point, because the in the circumstances you’ve described, hitting him would be self-defense. He’s being physically and verbally aggressive, blocking your exit and making it pretty damn clear that he intends for you to feel threatened. Any reasonable person, when faced with “You can’t leave, what are you going to do about it, pussy?” would assume that a punch from this guy is soon to follow. If you can’t get help from the bartender, and you can reasonably expect jerk-boy will escalate before the cops can get there, you are absolutely justified in defending yourself.
And back on topic, the same would be true if it were jerk-girl instead of jerk-boy. If you can’t leave the bar without being assaulted, you have the right to protect yourself so you can. The sex of the assailant is just not relevant. Your personal safety is.
HHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh!
::The crowd’s on it’s feet cheering wildly::
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
It’s ok in the same situations where hitting a man would be ok. Like rugby. And punch buggy.
Really? Wow, I’ve seen stull like that in the movies, but never in real life. How does one get one’s self in that sort of situation, and (more importantly) how does one not find one’s self in that postition to begin with?
But yeah, in that sort of situation, I would not consider it out of bounds not only to hit first, but to kill the guy if necessary.
Sometimes certain neighborhoood bar clientelles become rather territorial. If you don’t belong to their group, they’ll most likely ignore you, make you feel unwelcome, and generally communicate that you should leave. If they think you are part of some group they actually dislike, things can go to hell pretty quickly. the later it is and the drunker they are, the worse it can be.
There was a time in my life where my certain je ne sais quoi just seemed to attract psychopaths. I tended to hang around some pretty rough places back then too, which didn’t help things stay normal either.
ETA- Also what **Scumpup **said. Pool halls and biker bars are fun, but you’d better keep your wits about you.