# Is there any truth to this origin of the term/character architype "Black Knight" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 18, 2013, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-truth-to-this-origin-of-the-term-character-architype-black-knight/671554 "2013-10-18T04:26:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bisected8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a4c791/32.png) [@Bisected8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bisected8)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-truth-to-this-origin-of-the-term-character-architype-black-knight/671554/1 "2013-10-18T04:26:24Z")
A friend of mine mentioned earlier that the idea of a ominous looking chap riding around in black plate armour came from the practise of covering metal armour and other equipment in pitch, to stop it rusting. I tried googling to see if I could find anything to confirm it, but it turned up blank. Is there any truth to it, or was said friend BSing? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-truth-to-this-origin-of-the-term-character-architype-black-knight/671554/2 "2013-10-18T05:05:50Z")
I can’t confirm it, but I’ve heard a similar explanation; that a black knight was a knight who lacked a wealthy patron or much personal wealth, and so covered his armor in cheap black paint to protect it. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-truth-to-this-origin-of-the-term-character-architype-black-knight/671554/3 "2013-10-18T05:19:25Z")
You also have old stories about knights who intentionally disguised themselves, e.g. Sir Lancelot borrowing Sir Torre’s shield and leaving his own with Torre’s sister Elaine who becomes increasingly obsessed with it and fantasizing about being with Sir Lancelot \<3. It doesn’t end well. It could be that “black” might not necessarily mean black in color per se but could mean “blank” or “disguised” in general. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-truth-to-this-origin-of-the-term-character-architype-black-knight/671554/4 "2013-10-18T06:12:08Z")
> [@Bisected8](#): > > A friend of mine mentioned earlier that the idea of a ominous looking chap riding around in black plate armour came from the practise of covering metal armour and other equipment in pitch, to stop it rusting. Pitch would seem unlikely – that’s sticky and doesn’t dry very well. Plain black paint would be simpler (and cheaper). ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-truth-to-this-origin-of-the-term-character-architype-black-knight/671554/5 "2013-10-18T06:29:55Z")
Le Morte d’Arthur by Thomas Malory - > [@](#): > > There sat a knight all armed in black harness, and his name was the Knight of the Black Laund. Then the damosel, when she saw that knight, she bade him flee down that valley, for his horse was not saddled. Gramercy, said Beaumains, for always ye would have me a coward. With that the Black Knight, when she came nigh him, spake and said, Damosel, have ye brought this knight of King Arthur to be your champion? Nay, fair knight, said she, this is but a kitchen knave that was fed in King Arthur’s kitchen for alms. Why cometh he, said the knight, in such array? it is shame that he beareth you company. This seems to me to be indicative of a more symbolic meaning for the term, but it is possible that protective paint was used to prevent rusting of the armor. However, I would also imagine that such a practice would be relatively widespread since ‘rust never sleeps’. I was going to mention Monty Python, but I decided to be a good fellow and not do so. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-truth-to-this-origin-of-the-term-character-architype-black-knight/671554/6 "2013-10-18T07:42:31Z")
The Black Prince was so called because his armour was coloured black. Evidently that was unique enough to be his distinguishing characteristic. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-truth-to-this-origin-of-the-term-character-architype-black-knight/671554/7 "2013-10-18T07:46:44Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > The Black Prince was so called because his armour was coloured black. Evidently that was unique enough to be his distinguishing characteristic. Probably not true. There aren’t any references to Edward as “the Black Prince” till more then a century after his death and no contemporary references to his having black armor. He did have a black shield, which may have been the source of the name, or the name might’ve come from the French, simply because he killed a lot of French people, many in rather “black” ways. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-truth-to-this-origin-of-the-term-character-architype-black-knight/671554/8 "2013-10-18T09:50:37Z")
> **[Bluing (steel)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluing_(steel))** > > Bluing; sometimes spelled as blueing, is a passivation process in which steel is partially protected against rust using a black oxide coating. It is named after the blue-black appearance of the resulting protective finish. Bluing involves an electrochemical conversion coating resulting from an oxidizing chemical reaction with iron on the surface selectively forming magnetite (Fe3O4), the black oxide of iron. In comparison, rust, the red oxide of iron (Fe2O3), undergoes an extremely large volume c... The bluing process can give steel a blue or black appearance, and this might explain the trope. However, the Arthurian cast of characters also includes a Red Knight, a Brown Knight, a Blue Knight, and two Green Knights. In my opinion, the writers were probably referring to the heraldic colors on the shields and banners. Ireland had several hereditary knighthoods, three of which were nicknamed by colors: [the Black Knight](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_of_Glin) [the Green Knight](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_Kerry) [the White Knight](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Knight_(Fitzgibbon_family)) The White Knights were allegedly named because the Fitzgibbon family had fair skin. So “black knight” might also refer to dark hair or swarthy skin. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-truth-to-this-origin-of-the-term-character-architype-black-knight/671554/9 "2013-10-18T11:32:12Z")
Case hardening in charcoal will produce a black finish (same process as in mbh’s link for “bluing”), but armour was also turned various colours by other means like gilding, inlay, paint or niello. And I think in terms of the Black Knight, it’s supposed to be a value judgement or allegorical - look at Gawain’s Green Knight - he is _literally_ green of skin and clothing, but also figuratively linked to nature (e.g arrives with holly in hand) and also the Devil/supernatural (which was sometimes associated with green in medieval symbology). Note that the Green Knight prefigures Monty Python’s Black Knight with the lopping off of bits. No surprises there, given Terry Jones’ proclivities. ---
**Author:** ![tanstaafl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba8739/32.png) [@tanstaafl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tanstaafl)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-truth-to-this-origin-of-the-term-character-architype-black-knight/671554/10 "2013-10-18T11:35:11Z")
[TV Tropes has this to say:](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlackKnight) > [@TV Tropes](#): > > The trope name comes from the black knights of feudal Europe, men who would paint their armor and shields black for a number of reasons. One reason to do this was because they had no liege, making them analogous to Ronin Samurai. The black paint prevented the armor from rusting, which made life moderately easier for knights without a squire. A more sinister motive for the paint was to disguise who it was they served. A knight could move freely and serve his lord’s wishes without bringing him blame by painting over his coat of arms, one of the few ways to reliably identify a man in full platemail. This is Older Than Print, going back at least to Arthurian legend. Note that, in its original usage, a Black Knight was not necessarily villainous, though he was dishonorable, which in The Dung Ages was barely a step up. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-truth-to-this-origin-of-the-term-character-architype-black-knight/671554/11 "2013-10-18T11:55:34Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > I was going to mention Monty Python, but I decided to be a good fellow and not do so. OK, but somebody has to do it. It’s a black knight question, so it’s expected. Perhaps they wore [this](http://shirt.woot.com/offers/tis-but-a-scratch) under there armor to keep from chafing. ---
**Author:** ![Kizarvexius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Kizarvexius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kizarvexius)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-truth-to-this-origin-of-the-term-character-architype-black-knight/671554/12 "2013-10-18T17:39:14Z")
The notion of the black knight might also have been popularized by _Ivanhoe_. When the eponymous hero, competing in a tournament under an assumed name and charge (both of which indicate having been disinherited), is severely wounded, a knight in full black plate rides onto the field unannounced and saves Ivanhoe from being murdered or abducted by Prince John’s soldiers. This black knight later turns out to be King Richard, who has made his return to England in secret despite John’s efforts to keep him imprisoned in Austria.