# Is there any way Ohio can have an honest election in November? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2006, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-ohio-can-have-an-honest-election-in-november/362654 "2006-06-29T18:24:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-ohio-can-have-an-honest-election-in-november/362654/81 "2006-07-03T17:18:00Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > And your implicit accusations of a dishonest election in Ohio in recent years would mean more if the Congress of the United States hadn’t lookes at the issue and dismissed it. So now, Congress is always right? I remember that. I also remember there was a general feeling among Dems that they would rather accept the results and move on than risk a replay of the post-election controversy from 2000. [That doesn’t mean all the questions have been settled.](http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen) ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-ohio-can-have-an-honest-election-in-november/362654/82 "2006-07-03T18:00:05Z")
> [@](#): > > So now, Congress is always right I dunno. But the allegations which you make have been at least investigated. And found wanting. You wanna keep going over the same old ground, I suppose that’s your perogative. But when the overwhelming majority of Congress, a body which has undertaken an investigation, thinks it unproductive, or unwarranted, to do so, you run the risk of being labeled a conspiracy nut. The simple fact is, there’s damned little to demonstrate that Blackwell is complicit in any activities which could have, or actually did, compromise the 2000 & 2004 general elections in Ohio. And it ain’t for lack of trying that there’s nothing to show. There have been ample accusations and investigations. All of them fruitless. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-ohio-can-have-an-honest-election-in-november/362654/83 "2006-07-03T18:31:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Read the article linked in the OP more closely. Blackwell accused of practices which are unfair and egregious, but not necessarily criminal. (Arguably illegal, but that’s different; it is possible for a public official to do things that skirt or even break the law without actually incurring criminal liability.) Yawn. My point is this: when the only media outlets that are reporting unfair, egregious election practices with any hint of outrage are [commondreams.org](http://commondreams.org) and the like, I think it’s fair to say that something is missing. Rather than continuing to debate the merits of the accusations, for the purposes of argument I will accept as true that Blackwell et al are guilty of unfair, egregious acts that disenfranchise thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of would-be Democratic voters. My point, then, is: whatcha gonna do about it? Looks like he can continue his actions with impunity. There appears to be no strategy to stop him. The Democrats are utterly helpless to resist this tactic. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-ohio-can-have-an-honest-election-in-november/362654/84 "2006-07-03T18:36:41Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Well, I would think, if you’ve got 44% of registered voters on your side, moderating a few key planks of your platform might be a good way to attract 7% of the independents to you side, at which point you now have a majority of the voters. Hell, Kerry got 4%, all he needed more was a simple 2% swing from Bush to him, and he’s in the White House today. I’ll take your UHC proposal for example. Everyone thinks that UHC is a great idea in the abstract. “UHC that won’t cost me a cent and gives me unlimited medical coverage? Sign me up!” The problem is that most people realize that there are 50 million Americans without health insurance right now. Even assuming you could achieve a one to one transfer of the money spent on health insurance now to a government program, saying that it’ll be no problem insuring 300 million people for the money that currently insures 250 million people is just not credible. Claiming that a government sponsored UHC program would be efficient and allow citizens full choice of doctors and treatment is laughable. Government gives you the DMV, not Marcus Welby. Recognizing there is a problem is easy. Proposing to solve it buy instituting a UHC plan that “Won’t cost you anything more, really! And you’ll get full choice in your medical care! And ice cream! and bikes!” is laughable. Most people not in your base (and remember, we’re talking about attracting the independents here) recognize that it’s an empty promise to garner votes. Most of the electorate is smart enough to recognize snake oil when it’s being pushed on them. This was one issue where I thought Bush clearly cleaned Kerry’s clock. You may not think Medical Savings Accoints are the answer to all or even part of the problem, but at least they aren’t another in a long string of massive government giveaways touted as the “solution” to the problem du jour. The biggest problem for which you failed to account is the assumption that all those groups **BG** identified vote at the same rate. They don’t. Does anybody here doubt that Republican-tending voters are more disciplined about getting to the polls? Does anybody doubt that a slight majority of the country holds socially liberal values? I thought those were common wisdom. Now, I _thought_ it was also understood that Ken Blackwell, whether scrupulously or unscrupulously, did those things in his power to limit voting (which generally helps Republicans). I think **Polycarp’s** first post covered it pretty well. Just as in 2000, when Bush tried to get every hanging chad thrown out, and Gore tried to get every one counted, and just as Gore’s partisans looked for any little imprefection in any absentee ballot to get it tossed (absentees skew military, therefore Republican), and Bush tried to get the whole recount shut down, so does Ken Blackwell do those things which we can to limit Democratic turnout. I thought that was understood. Does anybody really want to defend the 80 lb. registration as non-partisan - if not, what was the purpose? Does anybody think the 2006 efforts to curtail registrations is anything but partisan? If so, what purpose do they serve? The question is whether he’s doing anything illegal. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-ohio-can-have-an-honest-election-in-november/362654/85 "2006-07-03T18:38:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yawn. My point is this: when the only media outlets that are reporting unfair, egregious election practices with any hint of outrage are [commondreams.org](http://commondreams.org) and the like, I think it’s fair to say that something is missing. The New York Times had an editorial on Blackwell’s practices which just went behind their archive curtain. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-ohio-can-have-an-honest-election-in-november/362654/86 "2006-07-03T18:45:24Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > The simple fact is, there’s damned little to demonstrate that Blackwell is complicit in any activities which could have, or actually did, compromise the 2000 & 2004 general elections in Ohio. And it ain’t for lack of trying that there’s nothing to show. There have been ample accusations and investigations. All of them fruitless. Still an open question IMO – but that’s rather beside the point. The things Blackwell is [**known**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Blackwell#Involvement_in_the_2004_U.S._presidential_election_controversy) to have done in 2004 were unfair and egregious and constituted rigging the election, even if all the ballots **were** honestly counted and even if there is no more dirt to be uncovered. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-ohio-can-have-an-honest-election-in-november/362654/87 "2006-07-03T18:46:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My point, then, is: whatcha gonna do about it? That’s the question with which I **started** this thread. Have you any suggestions? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-ohio-can-have-an-honest-election-in-november/362654/88 "2006-07-03T18:52:06Z")
> [@bup](#): > > oes anybody think the 2006 efforts to curtail registrations is anything but partisan? If so, what purpose do they serve? Which 2006 efforts are those? The only allegations of anything underhanded by Blackwell that I see in here allegedly took place in years past. > [@](#): > > I think Polycarp’s first post covered it pretty well. Just as in 2000, when Bush tried to get every hanging chad thrown out, and Gore tried to get every one counted, and just as Gore’s partisans looked for any little imprefection in any absentee ballot to get it tossed (absentees skew military, therefore Republican), and Bush tried to get the whole recount shut down, so does Ken Blackwell do those things which we can to limit Democratic turnout. You paint to glib a picture of Gore’s desires. Gore, through his attorneys, did not ask that “every vote be counted.” He petitioned for a recount in four counties only, picking ones known to be historically Democrat strongholds. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-ohio-can-have-an-honest-election-in-november/362654/89 "2006-07-03T18:55:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Still an open question IMO – but that’s rather beside the point. The things Blackwell is [**known**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Blackwell#Involvement_in_the_2004_U.S._presidential_election_controversy) to have done in 2004 were unfair and egregious and constituted rigging the election, even if all the ballots **were** honestly counted and even if there is no more dirt to be uncovered. Yeah, you gave me that list before. I asked how most of those things could be considered partisan. Not much in the way of rationale or evidence was provided. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-ohio-can-have-an-honest-election-in-november/362654/90 "2006-07-03T18:55:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That’s the question with which I **started** this thread. Have you any suggestions? Sit back and enjoy the victory? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-ohio-can-have-an-honest-election-in-november/362654/91 "2006-07-03T19:04:21Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > Sit back and enjoy the victory? Eh. I dunno about that. Blackwell, with his extreme right leanings, ain’t really somebody I think I want as the governator. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-ohio-can-have-an-honest-election-in-november/362654/92 "2006-07-03T19:07:04Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Yeah, you gave me that list before. I asked how most of those things could be considered partisan. Not much in the way of rationale or evidence was provided. See posts #37 and 38. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-ohio-can-have-an-honest-election-in-november/362654/93 "2006-07-03T19:08:38Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Which 2006 efforts are those? The only allegations of anything underhanded by Blackwell that I see in here allegedly took place in years past. [Blackwell instituted a bunch of new rules for voter registration, which ACORN says are underhanded](http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1149582726265130.xml&coll=2). > [@Uncle Beer](#): > > You paint to glib a picture of Gore’s desires. Gore, through his attorneys, did not ask that “every vote be counted.” He petitioned for a recount in four counties only, picking ones known to be historically Democrat strongholds. All the more to my point - but you seem to see it easier from the other side. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-ohio-can-have-an-honest-election-in-november/362654/94 "2006-07-03T19:09:57Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > You paint to glib a picture of Gore’s desires. Gore, through his attorneys, did not ask that “every vote be counted.” He petitioned for a recount in four counties only, picking ones known to be historically Democrat strongholds. Oh, and by the way, I meant Gore tried to get every _hanging chad_ counted. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-ohio-can-have-an-honest-election-in-november/362654/95 "2006-07-03T19:24:01Z")
> [@bup](#): > > [Blackwell instituted a bunch of new rules for voter registration, which ACORN says are underhanded](http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1149582726265130.xml&coll=2). From your link: > [@](#): > > The rules were drafted to comply with a new state election-reform law. The focus of most of the voter-registration activists’ ire is a provision that says registrars must return applicants’ forms “directly” to the secretary of state’s office or a county board of elections. Yeah, that sounds really underhanded and partisan. What are rest of the “bunch” of voter registration rules? Your link is as inspecific as the one Brain Glutton gave us from _The Nation_ previously. Which I find kinda weird coming from _The Cleveland Plain Dealer_; that’s normally a pretty well-written & well-researched publication. > [@](#): > > Oh, and by the way, I meant Gore tried to get every hanging chad counted. No, he didn’t. Gore wanted a full recount to be made in only four Florida counties. > [@Brain Glutton](#): > > See posts #37 and 38. Right. As I said “not much.” Mostly supposition that Blackwell could predit that the preponderance of new voter registrations would be from persons most likely to vote Democrat. A tenuous supposition indeed given the number of organizations active in Ohio in mid-2004 trying to register new voters. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-ohio-can-have-an-honest-election-in-november/362654/96 "2006-07-03T19:27:25Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Eh. I dunno about that. Blackwell, with his extreme right leanings, ain’t really somebody I think I want as the governator. I doubt he’ll make it. But I’m more concerned about how his shenanigans will affec the **Congressional** election in Ohio. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-ohio-can-have-an-honest-election-in-november/362654/97 "2006-07-03T19:43:16Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Yeah, that sounds really underhanded and partisan. What are rest of the “bunch” of voter registration rules? Your link is as inspecific as the one Brain Glutton gave us from _The Nation_ previously. There are a bunch of new ‘emergency’ rules that were put into place: [http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/news/ohio\_voter\_registration\_regulations.php](http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/news/ohio_voter_registration_regulations.php) Obviously partisan is an opinion until somebody’s stupid enough to write a law that says “Democratic registrations will be burned.” I didn’t say underhanded, so it’s unfair to ask me to defend that description. Which I find kinda weird coming from _The Cleveland Plain Dealer_; that’s normally a pretty well-written & well-researched publication.Yeah, weird. **Bricker** was lamenting the credibility of the cites…guess it doesn’t matter much. [Here’s something else from the Plain Dealer](http://www.cleveland.com/search/index.ssf?/base/opinion/1149755674195350.xml?oxedi&coll=2). [http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/news/ohio\_voter\_registration\_regulations.php](http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/news/ohio_voter_registration_regulations.php) > [@](#): > > No, he didn’t. Gore wanted a full recount to be made in only four Florida counties. So? How does that affect anything I said? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-ohio-can-have-an-honest-election-in-november/362654/98 "2006-07-03T19:44:17Z")
Most excellent coding. If some admin thinks they know what the hell I was attempting, could you please fix it? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-ohio-can-have-an-honest-election-in-november/362654/99 "2006-07-03T23:34:19Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Well, here in Washington state, the secretary of state is an elected office. And the Secretary of State can be re-elected, thus presiding over their own election. So why doesn’t anybody raise a stink? > > Yes, there’s a potential conflict of interest. If you want to subject this race to extra scrutiny, feel free. But to suggest that the bare fact that an incumbent secretary of state is seeking another elective office means honest election is impossible is pretty weak. Uh, no. The current governor of Missouri is Matt Blunt. Young man, son of one Roy Blunt, who’s a congressman from Missouri with a few enemies in the state GOP. Matt seems like a nice enough sort. No clue why he got the GOP nomination, or won the office. Except–he was Secretary of State when running the first time. Yeah, it makes a difference. Unavailability of evidence is not evidence of nonexistence. You never heard of the “perfect crime”? And this happens in the USA all the time. If the state election boards were actually honest, & serious about avoiding political corruption, they’d make an effort to avoid conflicts of interest & look above-board. That they don’t strongly implies that the corruption is important–nay, vital–to them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-ohio-can-have-an-honest-election-in-november/362654.md?page=4)