# Is there any way to refrigerate foods w/o electricity
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-refrigerate-foods-w-o-electricity/305957
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [May 29, 2005, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-refrigerate-foods-w-o-electricity/305957 "2005-05-29T04:09:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2005, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-refrigerate-foods-w-o-electricity/305957/1 "2005-05-29T04:09:03Z")
The only way I can think of is a propane refrigerator. Are there any other ways to keep foods from spoiling if you don’t have a refrigerator?
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### Author:  [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2005, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-refrigerate-foods-w-o-electricity/305957/2 "2005-05-29T04:19:09Z")
Well, you could dig down to the permafrost and put your food just on top of the frozen subsurface soil.
Or leave it in a peat moss bog.
Or build an house with really thick walls and fill it with ice and then put your food in it.
Or seal it in plastic and irradiate it.
That’s all I’ve got.
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### Author:  [@Claude\_Remains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claude_Remains)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2005, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-refrigerate-foods-w-o-electricity/305957/3 "2005-05-29T04:19:12Z")
Meats can be cured.
fruits can be dried.
you could take advantage of a cold running source of water .
a hole in the eath can be 20 degrees cooler than the suface.
or just useing food on hand in a timley manner.
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### Author:  [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2005, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-refrigerate-foods-w-o-electricity/305957/4 "2005-05-29T04:20:45Z")
Insulate it during the day and expose it to the sky at night. The Arabs used to make ice that way, in the desert.
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### Author:  [@Claude\_Remains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claude_Remains)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2005, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-refrigerate-foods-w-o-electricity/305957/5 "2005-05-29T04:22:40Z")
Ice cold cite?
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### Author:  [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2005, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-refrigerate-foods-w-o-electricity/305957/6 "2005-05-29T04:27:36Z")
> [@Napier](#):
>
> Insulate it during the day and expose it to the sky at night. The Arabs used to make ice that way, in the desert.
Care to explain exactly how this was done? I’d think it would require the temperature at night fall to below freezing.
As to the OP, I can think of numerous theoretical ways that a refrigerator could be designed to work if it had a constant source of energy, like a running stream or geothermal. None of which would likely ever be practical.
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### Author:  [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2005, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-refrigerate-foods-w-o-electricity/305957/7 "2005-05-29T04:35:54Z")
There’s one (seemingly simple) way that I remember reading about several years ago. It was invented for people to use in hot areas with out electricity. The idea is that you have a pot (I’m thinking it was teracotta) with the inside lined with wet mud. You then put another pot inside that and put the food you want cooled in the center pot with a cover on it. The cover only covers the center pot and as the moisture evaporates from between the too pots it cools the center one.
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### Author:  [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2005, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-refrigerate-foods-w-o-electricity/305957/8 "2005-05-29T05:11:21Z")
The inventor’s name is [Mohammed Bah Abba](http://www.boingboing.net/2004/03/22/inventor_of_noelectr.html), and, no insult to you, but it was not several years ago, but one year.
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### Author:  [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2005, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-refrigerate-foods-w-o-electricity/305957/9 "2005-05-29T05:25:30Z")
[Yep](http://www.antique-antiques.com/antique-icebox-iceboxes.shtml), it’s called an [ice box](http://www.wilsonantiquemall.com/bakerfridge.html). You could probably use a variation of the theme with [dry ice](http://www.arizonaiceman.com/diother.htm), as long as you are [careful](http://www.dryiceinfo.com/science.htm).
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### Author:  [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2005, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-refrigerate-foods-w-o-electricity/305957/10 "2005-05-29T05:31:33Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#):
>
> The inventor’s name is [Mohammed Bah Abba](http://www.boingboing.net/2004/03/22/inventor_of_noelectr.html), and, no insult to you, but it was not several years ago, but one year.
[http://www.varaprasad.htmlplanet.com/custom3.html](http://www.varaprasad.htmlplanet.com/custom3.html)
“The innovative cooling system that Abba developed in 1995 consists of two earthenware pots of different diameters, one placed inside the other.”
Actually, it was 10 years ago. It is just he won the Rolex reward last year.
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### Author:  [@Claude\_Remains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claude_Remains)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2005, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-refrigerate-foods-w-o-electricity/305957/11 "2005-05-29T05:33:44Z")
If I get hot I go stand in the shade.
YOU CAN TOO! (if you follow my plan)
1. Sweating yer ass off ? Go stand in the shade .
2. Stand in the shade till you feel cool.
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### Author:  [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2005, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-refrigerate-foods-w-o-electricity/305957/12 "2005-05-29T05:39:58Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#):
>
> “The innovative cooling system that Abba developed in 1995 consists of two earthenware pots of different diameters, one placed inside the other.”
I need to RTFA. :smack:
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### Author:  [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2005, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-refrigerate-foods-w-o-electricity/305957/13 "2005-05-29T05:46:54Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#):
>
> Care to explain exactly how this was done? I’d think it would require the temperature at night fall to below freezing.
You can do this with radiative cooling. Make a tube out of sheet metal. Paint the inside surface flat black. Point one end at the night sky. Put a container of water at the other end of the tube. The water will be chilled by radiative cooling. The night sky is substantially cooler than the air temperature at ground level. It helps to have a clear sky and low humidity.
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### Author:  [@Claude\_Remains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claude_Remains)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2005, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-refrigerate-foods-w-o-electricity/305957/14 "2005-05-29T07:07:50Z")
> [@mks57](#):
>
> You can do this with radiative cooling. Make a tube out of sheet metal. Paint the inside surface flat black. Point one end at the night sky. Put a container of water at the other end of the tube. The water will be chilled by radiative cooling. The night sky is substantially cooler than the air temperature at ground level. It helps to have a clear sky and low humidity.
And the ground at just two feet deep is cooler than the air and the surface so how come I can’t dig up an iceburg here in miami and have a snowball fight?
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### Author:  [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2005, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-refrigerate-foods-w-o-electricity/305957/15 "2005-05-29T07:22:53Z")
> [@bob fortuna](#):
>
> And the ground at just two feet deep is cooler than the air and the surface so how come I can’t dig up an iceburg here in miami and have a snowball fight?
The below-surface ground temperature is something different, it is based on conduction.
The temperature of the night sky is based on radiation from the atmosphere and outer space. Why do you think the surface of the Moon is so cold on its dark side?
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### Author:  [@Claude\_Remains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claude_Remains)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2005, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-refrigerate-foods-w-o-electricity/305957/16 "2005-05-29T08:56:05Z")
Listen, put up or shut up . the dark side of the moon isn’t even made of ice, Beerstien! I’d say its about time for the mods to put this thread on ice but thats as far as I’ll go.
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### Author:  [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2005, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-refrigerate-foods-w-o-electricity/305957/17 "2005-05-29T10:04:29Z")
> [@bob fortuna](#):
>
> Listen, put up or shut up . the dark side of the moon isn’t even made of ice, Beerstien! I’d say its about time for the mods to put this thread on ice but thats as far as I’ll go.
Charming. Ignorance with attitude.
[http://lists.nau.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0403&L=phys-l&F=&S=&P=21238](http://lists.nau.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0403&L=phys-l&F=&S=&P=21238)
From the bottom -
**"\>\>Reminds me of Arabs who made ice in the desert using blankets
\>\>(ca. 500 CE ?) reported by G. Gamow.
\>
\>_I’ve repeated the experiment myself, making ice in the desert
\>using styrofoam coolers et cetera. Works fine. Impresses the
\>tourists."_**
Or:
[http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/nov99/941723540.Sh.r.html](http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/nov99/941723540.Sh.r.html)
Or this lecture has a worked example (last three pages) showing it could work even with an air temperature of 60 deg. F.
[http://www.eng.usf.edu/~crane/heat\_tran/HT%20Lecture%2016.doc](http://www.eng.usf.edu/~crane/heat_tran/HT%20Lecture%2016.doc)
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### Author:  [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2005, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-refrigerate-foods-w-o-electricity/305957/18 "2005-05-29T11:11:40Z")
It’s a bit counter-intuitive but the physics is sound. Objects will come into thermal equilibrium with their “surroundings”. However, in this case, you’ve thermally isolated it from the earth so the only surroundings it has is deep space. Put another way, the water inside the cooler has no way of “knowing” if it’s on earth or if it’s on the dark side of the moon.
In practise, there’s a bit of heat leaking in from the container and from air currents but the are small relative to the radiative loss.
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### Author:  [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2005, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-refrigerate-foods-w-o-electricity/305957/19 "2005-05-29T12:08:12Z")
Doesn’t evaporation begat refrigeration? Or does that only work on skin with sensory nerve endings?
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### Author:  [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2005, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-refrigerate-foods-w-o-electricity/305957/20 "2005-05-29T12:29:25Z")
> [@bob fortuna](#):
>
> Listen, put up or shut up . the dark side of the moon isn’t even made of ice, Beerstien! I’d say its about time for the mods to put this thread on ice but thats as far as I’ll go.
**bob fortuna**. You’re in General Questions here. You seem a little combative. Perhaps if you weren’t so quick to make negative comments, you’d look less embarassed when those cites are forthcoming.
Try to keep the tone a little less hostile.
**samclem** GQ moderator
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