# Is there any way to undo a “not guilty” verdict by a jury in a criminal trial? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 22, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-undo-a-not-guilty-verdict-by-a-jury-in-a-criminal-trial/718300 "2015-04-22T17:49:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-undo-a-not-guilty-verdict-by-a-jury-in-a-criminal-trial/718300/61 "2015-04-24T22:19:42Z")
> [@regginbrow](#): > > How about Emmett Till’s murderers? I was going to mention this. The two rednecks that killed him [sold their story to Look magazine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till#Media_discourse) for a couple thousand dollars (in 1956 money). They fully admitted their guilt and even gave a detailed and graphic description of the events. Apparently this became one of the reasons crimes like this can now also be prosecuted at the federal level for violation of civil rights (and avoiding double jeopardy). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-undo-a-not-guilty-verdict-by-a-jury-in-a-criminal-trial/718300/62 "2015-04-24T22:29:10Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > I was going to mention this. The two rednecks that killed him [sold their story to Look magazine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till#Media_discourse) for a couple thousand dollars (in 1956 money). They fully admitted their guilt and even gave a detailed and graphic description of the events. Apparently this became one of the reasons crimes like this can now also be prosecuted at the federal level for violation of civil rights (and avoiding double jeopardy). Till’s murderers did not testify in their own defense, so they couldn’t be prosecuted for perjury. There were charged with kidnapping Till after the _Look_ piece but the grand jury (shockingly, all white) declined to indict. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-undo-a-not-guilty-verdict-by-a-jury-in-a-criminal-trial/718300/63 "2015-04-25T13:43:49Z")
Isn’t there some principle in US law (IIRC there is in Canadian law) about a right to a speedy trial? I.e. the government can’t store information about people on its enemies list and then decide to prosecute them 5 or 10 years later when they begin to make trouble for the government. If the government has all the facts, it cannot wait a long time to take it to trial? Most “charged with murder 20 years later” cases hinge on additional evidence that comes to light resulting in charges being laid. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-undo-a-not-guilty-verdict-by-a-jury-in-a-criminal-trial/718300/64 "2015-04-25T15:53:55Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Isn’t there some principle in US law (IIRC there is in Canadian law) about a right to a speedy trial? I.e. the government can’t store information about people on its enemies list and then decide to prosecute them 5 or 10 years later when they begin to make trouble for the government. If the government has all the facts, it cannot wait a long time to take it to trial? > > Most “charged with murder 20 years later” cases hinge on additional evidence that comes to light resulting in charges being laid. I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. But my layman’s understanding is the right to a speedy trial kicks in only once charges have been formally filed. Interestingly, Thailand has a statute of limitations on murder. I believe it’s 20 years. Always found that odd. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-undo-a-not-guilty-verdict-by-a-jury-in-a-criminal-trial/718300/65 "2015-04-25T17:55:39Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. But my layman’s understanding is the right to a speedy trial kicks in only once charges have been formally filed. > > Interestingly, Thailand has a statute of limitations on murder. I believe it’s 20 years. Always found that odd. The statute of limitations, where it exists, is reasonable. Try finding witnesses, defense exhibits, etc. 20 years after the fact. Who’s going to testify “Yes, he was in my bar all night” after 25 years? Have the credit card receipts? Witnesses may be mistaken, have ages to concoct stories, grow grudges, etc. I suspect the law was put in place before modern forensic methods, widespread crime scene photography, blood typing and DNA, and other procedures. 75 years ago age would not be kind to any attempt to prosecute or defend a case, all evidence would be suspect. (There’s a case today in Canada, Candace Derksen was murdered 30 years ago. The case is mentioned in one of Malcolm Gladwell’s books. Her murderer was charged a few years ago based on mainly some DNA on hair found on the rope used to tie her up. The Supreme Court here ordered a new trial based on another similar case that may or may not have happened when the defendant was in jail. But I’d be really worried about convicting someone based on a few hairs that happen to be found and matched and nothing else. It stinks too much of convenient planting. After 30 years, who knows?) The same applies to “speedy trial”. If a charge is laid much later, based only on evidence available long before, I would say that it deprives the defendant of due process if it makes his defence that much more difficult. The prosecution can investigate and store what information it wants using the full apparatus of the state, while the defendant may not know to begin assembling a defence until well after the event. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-undo-a-not-guilty-verdict-by-a-jury-in-a-criminal-trial/718300/66 "2015-04-25T18:08:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Frank Alsip, the owner of Alsip’s Building Products and Services Ltd., testified he has no memory of ever employing Grant but admitted personnel records have long since been destroyed. Alsip said “it’s possible” Grant could have spent some time on the property, which could explain why strands of his hair were found inside the shed near Derksen’s body. Here’s an example of the problem with charging someone decades later. Plus, the shed where her body was found was apparently unlocked and possibly used by local teenagers as a hangout. > [@](#): > > Grant’s lawyer Saul Simmonds continued to cast doubt on how police seized and examined the items, suggesting the evidence chain was quickly contaminated. > > Ogilvie admitted he might not have been wearing gloves when he examined the twine used to bind Derksen’s limbs. He also said he could not remember whether he coughed or sneezed on the items, possibly contaminating them. > > Pamela Dixon, an RCMP DNA analyst, told court she was tasked with extracting DNA from the same twine and other items in 2001 and 2002. She said the DNA extracted was measured in nanograms, or billionths of a gram. > > Dixon said she would not be able to tell if a DNA sample had been contaminated before examining i > [@](#): > > Officers also looked at convicted killer Stanley Pomfret as a possible suspect, Lutz added. Pomfret killed Tena Franks and raped two other girls in the early 1990s, but he was ruled out as a suspect in the Derksen case. He provided a DNA sample to police in the cold case investigation. > > Police also sent Grant’s hair sample for testing in early January 2007, and got a result about two weeks later. It was not explained in court why police had Grant’s hair on file. > > “We decided we needed to start a short-term task force,” Lutz said, adding Grant was the target. > > Grant, 47, has pleaded not guilty to first-degree murder in Derksen’s death. Derksen vanished while walking home from school Nov. 30, 1984. Her frozen body was found Jan. 17, 1985 inside the shed located at a brickyard less than two kilometres away. She had been tied up and apparently left to freeze to death. > > The investigation of Grant also included police setting up a special surveillance unit in order to obtain a “discarded DNA sample,” Lutz said. > > Besides the hair, other items were also sent for forensic testing, including twine and a chip bag found in the shed. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-undo-a-not-guilty-verdict-by-a-jury-in-a-criminal-trial/718300/67 "2015-04-26T19:58:22Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Isn’t there some principle in US law (IIRC there is in Canadian law) about a right to a speedy trial? I.e. the government can’t store information about people on its enemies list and then decide to prosecute them 5 or 10 years later when they begin to make trouble for the government. If the government has all the facts, it cannot wait a long time to take it to trial? **Sam** has it right: the federal constitutional right to a speedy trial does not attach until a formal charging instrument has been filed. Interestingly, the Sixth Amendment is rather vague on what “speedy” means and SCOTUS has specifically declined to attach a bright line deadline to the right. They have [basically established](https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/407/514/case.html) a “totality of the circumstances” test which looks at: > [@](#): > > length of delay, the reason for the delay, the defendant’s assertion of his right, and prejudice to the defendant. Most state constitutions are more specific. In Florida, the constitution requires that the accused be brought to trial within 90 days on misdemeanor charges or 175 days on felonies, unless the right is waived. ---
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-undo-a-not-guilty-verdict-by-a-jury-in-a-criminal-trial/718300/68 "2015-04-28T02:27:53Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > So let’s assume there was a bomb explosion that killed 100 victims, the forensic evidence which leads to the defendant is controversial. So the way to approach this for the prosecution is to charge the accused only with the murder of victim no. 1, if he is acquitted, let’s charge him with murdering victim no. 2, a new trial, again an acquittal. Then no. 3 etc. This can’t be right. Well, you’ll want some stronger evidence before you file the second set of charges, because otherwise the defense has it pretty easy. “Yer honor, the evidence suggests that all these murders were committed by the same person, and a jury already ruled it wasn’t my client.” The prosecutor needs to be able to come back with “But that jury only ruled that way because he’d threatened their families. Whether he was actually guilty is still in question, and questions of fact are what juries are for.” ---
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-undo-a-not-guilty-verdict-by-a-jury-in-a-criminal-trial/718300/69 "2015-04-28T02:37:04Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > I thought this would be precisely the one and unalienable right of the defendant, i. e. shamelessly and incessantly lying his ass off? Nope, it is the right to refuse to answer. Hence the phrase Hollywood uses when folks invoke the Fifth Amendment: “I refuse to answer on the grounds that any answer I might give would tend to incriminate me.” This was also why Bill Clinton didn’t commit perjury when he denied an affair with Monica Lewinski when compelled to testify to Congress. The Fifth Amendment gives everyone an option ovoid incriminating themselves, either by admitting to a crime or committing the crime of perjury. Since the President, when so compelled by Congress, cannot refuse to answer, … giving an intentionally false answer cannot be a crime. Even the President must have a way to avoid self-incrimination. ---
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-undo-a-not-guilty-verdict-by-a-jury-in-a-criminal-trial/718300/70 "2015-04-28T02:51:45Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > When a defendant is found to be not guilty by a jury in criminal trial, he is acquitted for good, meaning: he would now be free to admit that he actually did commit the crime and he can even brag about the fact that he got away. He can’t be tried again for the same crime (double jeopardy). Just want to point out he’s not 100% “free” to admit his crime. For instance, he can still be sued for “wrongful death” by the family of his victim, and that case becomes a slam-dunk if he has admitted to being the cause of death. Also, prosecutors are pretty crafty at finding ways to charge you with _something_ when they know you got away with murder. For instance, did you deprive your victim of his Civil Rights (by killing him)? That’s a Federal Crime. Lastly, the Supreme Court has ruled that Conspiracy to Commit (insert crime name) is not the same act as committing that crime for purposes of Double Jeopardy. So you could (will) be on trial again for essentially the same thing if they can find somebody to testify that you suggested to them that “we” oughtta kill that guy. ---
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-undo-a-not-guilty-verdict-by-a-jury-in-a-criminal-trial/718300/71 "2015-04-28T02:54:26Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Double Jeopardy didn’t apply because it was a more serious crime than the original trial. That doesn’t usually work. If you stand trial for assault, and your victim later dies of his injuries, … the judge is going to tell the prosecutor that he could have waited to see if they’d die before trying you, and he chose not to. You have already been tried for that act. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-undo-a-not-guilty-verdict-by-a-jury-in-a-criminal-trial/718300/72 "2015-04-28T03:27:19Z")
> [@SpyOne](#): > > This was also why Bill Clinton didn’t commit perjury when he denied an affair with Monica Lewinski when compelled to testify to Congress. The Fifth Amendment gives everyone an option ovoid incriminating themselves, either by admitting to a crime or committing the crime of perjury. Since the President, when so compelled by Congress, cannot refuse to answer, … giving an intentionally false answer cannot be a crime. Even the President must have a way to avoid self-incrimination. First, do you have a cite for any of this? Second, Clinton avoided committing perjury in his testimony to Congress by not testifying before Congress. Clinton’s denial was made in a deposition in the Paula Jones civil suit. The only fact witness testimony in the impeachment trial came from Vernon Jordan, Lewinsky and Sidney Blumenthal, who all testified by deposition. ---
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-undo-a-not-guilty-verdict-by-a-jury-in-a-criminal-trial/718300/73 "2015-04-28T03:34:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But here’s a tougher one: > > Jones is arrested by DEA agents, who testify at trial that pursuant to a valid warrant they kicked down Jones’ door one evening and found Jones and his friend Smith in possession of large quantities of cocaine, most of which he had flushed down the toilet, after which they charged Jones with conspiracy to distribute controlled substances, a crime that includes a requirement of at least 50 grams of cocaine be involved. Jones’ defense is that he had only a tiny amount of cocaine for personal use and the DEA agents were lying about how much cocaine was present. Smith takes a deal and testifies against Jones, saying that they had weighed the coke before the door was bashed in and there was 1.5 kilograms. The jury acquits Jones. > > Then the government re-indicts Jones, this time for possession with intent to distribute controlled substances - i.e., cocaine. This crime also requires at least 50 grams to allow a presumption of intent to distribute. As evidence, the government wants to present the same testimony of the same DEA agents and Smith about how much cocaine Jones had. > > Can they? Well, first things first: as I noted above, the Supreme Court says “Conspiracy” is not the same crime for jeopardy, so the case isn’t killed right there. I am not aware of any reason their testimony would not be admissible in the new trial. BUT, if you are talking about just entering their previous testimony into the record, as opposed to having them come in and testify again, that probably won’t work. The Defendant has a right to “confront his accusers”, and that includes cross-examining them on their testimony. New trial=new chance to cross examine. There are exceptions, like if the witness is not available anymore, but as far as I know only if they can show that the witness is unavailable because the defendant **made** them so, like by having them killed. IF they died of natural causes, that’s just tough luck for the prosecutors. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-undo-a-not-guilty-verdict-by-a-jury-in-a-criminal-trial/718300/74 "2015-04-28T10:51:58Z")
> [@SpyOne](#): > > Well, first things first: as I noted above, the Supreme Court says “Conspiracy” is not the same crime for jeopardy, so the case isn’t killed right there. > > I am not aware of any reason their testimony would not be admissible in the new trial. > BUT, if you are talking about just entering their previous testimony into the record, as opposed to having them come in and testify again, that probably won’t work. The Defendant has a right to “confront his accusers”, and that includes cross-examining them on their testimony. New trial=new chance to cross examine. There are exceptions, like if the witness is not available anymore, but as far as I know only if they can show that the witness is unavailable because the defendant **made** them so, like by having them killed. IF they died of natural causes, that’s just tough luck for the prosecutors. You have spotted the wrong issue. I’m asking if the second trial is permissible under double jeopardy and collateral estoppel principles. I don’t think there’s any question that, assuming the trial itself is permissible, the witnesses can testify again about what they saw. If the witnesses are unavailable, though, I disagree that it’s tough luck for the prosecutors. The testimony from the previous trial can be read into the next one. Of course, it’s hearsay, but admissible under a well-known exception to the hearsay rules. ---
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-undo-a-not-guilty-verdict-by-a-jury-in-a-criminal-trial/718300/75 "2015-04-29T01:53:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You have spotted the wrong issue. I’m asking if the second trial is permissible under double jeopardy and collateral estoppel principles. Actually, as I pointed out, I had already addressed the issue you intended to raise: The US Supreme Court says conspiracy is a different crime for jeopardy purposes. So yes, if he was acquitted for “Conspiracy to” whatever, he could then be retried for the crime he was originally accused of conspiring to commit. And vice-versa: OJ was acquitted of killing Nichole, but if the state can come up with evidence he conspired with somebody, he could be tried for that criminal conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-undo-a-not-guilty-verdict-by-a-jury-in-a-criminal-trial/718300/76 "2015-04-29T02:29:10Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > If you bribe the judge then you were never in jeopardy so retrying you doesn’t amount to double jeopardy. Does the defendant have to be aware of the bribery to invalidate the trial in this manner? What happens if somebody else bribes the judge and jury to acquit but the defendant is under the belief he’s facing a legitimate trial? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-undo-a-not-guilty-verdict-by-a-jury-in-a-criminal-trial/718300/77 "2015-04-29T02:39:49Z")
> [@SpyOne](#): > > Actually, as I pointed out, I had already addressed the issue you intended to raise: The US Supreme Court says conspiracy is a different crime for jeopardy purposes. > > So yes, if he was acquitted for “Conspiracy to” whatever, he could then be retried for the crime he was originally accused of conspiring to commit. Wrong. It’s _possible_ he could be retried, but not certain. The limiting factor is not the same-crime aspect. There’s nothing magical about conspiracy, by the way; any two crimes are different for double-jeopardy purposes if each contains an element that the other does not. The limiting factor is the collateral estoppel issue. You’re confusing issue preclusion with claim preclusion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-any-way-to-undo-a-not-guilty-verdict-by-a-jury-in-a-criminal-trial/718300.md?page=3)