# Is there anybody else here who just cannot make up their mind on illegal immigrants? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2006, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459 "2006-05-04T22:14:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459/41 "2006-05-05T17:05:07Z")
> [@FatBaldGuy](#): > > I’m having trouble resolving the conflict between my “fair/right/moral” compass and my “real world” compass. > > In an ideal world, if I were “Immigration Czar” I would say, “OK, all you illegals. You have 6 months from today to go back across the border and come back in legally. We promise that if you fill out the paperwork and have a clean record we’ll let you back in and you can go back to your job. After 6 months you will be arrested and prosecuted for being here illegally.” > > Obviously, in the “real world” this would never work, because of the political, economic and other disasters that would result. [Peter Venkman] Plus, as a fiscal conservative, I have to ask the question I always ask of any government program: “So who’s paying for this, Ray?” [/peter venkman] ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459/42 "2006-05-05T17:24:26Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Because both political parties didn’t want it on the table. The dems favor more liberal immigration, in part because they believe eventually that they will gain votes. The reps didn’t want to deprive big business of a cheap labor pool. An unholy alliance if there ever was one. It became an issue only after the Minutemen shined a light on the problem, and Tom Tancredo, (R) Colorado, made this his cause in congress. The Minutemen did little, and they still are not to be trusted. Tom Tancredo and other demagogues have puffed them up and then they have the gall to say the Minutemen shined the light. They are curiously “humble” on who did shine the light, I do think like typical politicians they are just finding others to hide behind if their efforts are not successful. The Minutemen were founded in 2005 and Tancredo had illegal immigration draconian ideas from way back. [http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=915](http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=915) ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459/43 "2006-05-05T17:25:42Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Blinded by ideology a little bit? > > 2002 we were, of course, distracted by the thought of mushroom clouds blossoming over American cities. > > 2004 we were, of course, busy engaging in battle with the Pink Menace > > 2006 we’ll be protecting good gawd-fearing Americans from the Brown Menace…unless something bigger and better can be manufactured by November. > > Tell me, sir, why wasn’t this a huge issue in 1998? 2000? 2002? 2004? Has something happened to make this suddenly **THE PROBLEM** that needs to be dealt with yesterday? > > -Joe I can’t speak for everyone, but it became more an issue to me personally when I moved from Columbus Ohio to Los Angeles. I didn’t see the problems, so it didn’t really cross my mind. That’s probably a factor for many people that don’t have large groups of immigrants, legal or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459/44 "2006-05-05T17:28:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Huh? You asked a question baout why it was an issue now and I answered it. With a lot of info missing so as to be misleading. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459/45 "2006-05-05T17:29:09Z")
> [@Oy!](#): > > Yes, and of course NONE of the Republican people who do want a strictly enforcement policy are motivated by politics, just as they weren’t when considering the Dubai Ports deal or Terry Schiavo. :rolleyes: > > If we truly want to control illegal immigration, **Giles** has it dead right. Make it economically disadvantageous to businesses to hire them. It will take a bit longer than border control, but it’s also likely to be \*far \* more effective. Yes, you’ll still get a few coming to do private service jobs such as housecleaning or day labor, but I suspect the numbers will be insignificant when compared to those employed by established businesses. I’ve been toying with the idea of setting up a boycott of companies that use illegal labor. Though I’m not sure how easy or difficult it would be to find out which ones do. If enough citizens would participate in something like that, we can help create an economic disadantage for those companies, without waiting for the government to come up with something. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459/46 "2006-05-05T17:41:38Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The Minutemen did little, and they still are not to be trusted. Tom Tancredo and other demagogues have puffed them up and then they have the gall to say the Minutemen shined the light. They are curiously “humble” on who did shine the light, I do think like typical politicians they are just finding others to hide behind if their efforts are not successful. The Minutemen were founded in 2005 and Tancredo had illegal immigration draconian ideas from way back. This is extremely bad form. I blew you off in two other thread for your density and childish behavior and now you stalk me here, posting something NOT germaine to the discussion. Someone asked why this was an issue. The Minutemen and Tancredo are part of that answer REGARDLESS IF YOU THINK THEY ARE WRONG AND RACIST. In fact, regardless if you’re even right about it. Grow up. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459/47 "2006-05-05T17:46:50Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > With a lot of info missing so as to be misleading. Oh, really? Show me what part of my answers in this thread was misleading. Keep in mind, as I just pointed out to you, whether The Minutemen or Tancredo are right or wrong in their beliefs and actions is not material to the point that they helped bring the issue to the fore. So, let’s hear it, son. If you can’t answer that ON POINT, why don’t you try offer something constructive to the OP, or go play elsewhere. Don’t go and ruin yet another thread. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459/48 "2006-05-05T17:52:53Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > I’ve been toying with the idea of setting up a boycott of companies that use illegal labor. Though I’m not sure how easy or difficult it would be to find out which ones do. > > If enough citizens would participate in something like that, we can help create an economic disadantage for those companies, without waiting for the government to come up with something. At least one person [had the same idea.](http://wehirealiens.com/resultsall.asp) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459/49 "2006-05-05T18:06:43Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, really? Show me what part of my answers in this thread was misleading. Keep in mind, as I just pointed out to you, whether The Minutemen or Tancredo are right or wrong in their beliefs and actions is not material to the point that they helped bring the issue to the fore. > > So, let’s hear it, son. > > If you can’t answer that ON POINT, why don’t you try offer something constructive to the OP, or go play elsewhere. Don’t go and ruin yet another thread. The Minutemen did not bring this up, it is still misleading to say so, they actually muddled the waters, it was Tancredo who gets the [del]blame[/del] credit, he and other republicans exaggerated the importance of the Minutemen ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459/50 "2006-05-05T18:11:19Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > With a lot of info missing so as to be misleading. Come now. All he did was vaguely wave the terrorist boogeyman in front of us. You know, it’s like coming up against a zombie. Sure, putting a crucifix in their face **probably** won’t work, but you’ve gotta try. Especially if it’s all you’ve got. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459/51 "2006-05-05T18:26:14Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The Minutemen did not bring this up, it is still misleading to say so, they actually muddled the waters, it was Tancredo who gets the [del]blame[/del] credit, he and other republicans exaggerated the importance of the Minutemen But you said before that what was misleading was what _I left out_. Here is your quote: > [@GIGObuster](#): > > With a lot of info missing so as to be misleading. But now you state that _what I actually posted_ was misleading: that Tancredo and the Minutemen brought the issue to the fore. And here is my quote (which you even quoted) to that effect. I’ll underline the specific pasage so you don’t miss it: > [@](#): > > Because both political parties didn’t want it on the table. The dems favor more liberal immigration, in part because they believe eventually that they will gain votes. The reps didn’t want to deprive big business of a cheap labor pool. An unholy alliance if there ever was one. It became an issue only after the Minutemen shined a light on the problem, and Tom Tancredo, (R) Colorado, made this his cause in congress. So, we have you claiming I was misleading because of things\* I left out\*. When called upon to show what I left out _you then point to something I actually said_. Maybe that explains why in your latest post you contradict yourself and make my point in one sentence. Well done, champ. Thank you for that. At least you seem to have grasped that the rightness or wrongness of either Tancredo or The Minutemen have anything to do with the fact that they helped bring it to the fore. And you seem to now think that Tancredo deserves “credit” for his actions. not “blame”. We are in agreement. Maybe there is hope after all… ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459/52 "2006-05-05T18:29:48Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Come now. All he did was vaguely wave the terrorist boogeyman in front of us. > > You know, it’s like coming up against a zombie. Sure, putting a crucifix in their face **probably** won’t work, but you’ve gotta try. Especially if it’s all you’ve got. Who is “he”? If you mean Tancredo, I get it. If you mean me, which seems to make the most sense from your post, please explain how I did that. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459/53 "2006-05-05T18:36:06Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > The OP describes my position pretty well, although I’m leaning more and more towards the idea of a guest worker program. Initially, my reaction was-- round 'em up and send 'em back. And maybe if I thought we actually could do that, I’d still be in favor of it. Seems to me, though, that this is pretty much like the “drug problem”. The cure (drug laws as the exist now) is worse than the disease, and you’re just fighting a losing battle. Better to deal with the reality of the situation. There’s certainly precedent within the U.S. for guest worker visas, at least on the agricultural side, with the H-2A program. There are safeguards in place, at least on the books, around working conditions, wages, and competitition with native labor. Maybe we just face up to facts and broadly extend this program to cover non-agricultural labor, with some possible path to citizenship for these workers. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459/54 "2006-05-05T18:38:40Z")
I don’t think there’s much to debate. They’re here illegally, so if we’re going to uphold our laws they should be deported. Otherwise let’s get rid of the laws and let anyone in to the USA at any time. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459/55 "2006-05-05T19:01:54Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > I can think of 20 guys who got into this country who caused a problem. Didn’t they get these checks that you think would make a big difference? > > -Joe [Uh](http://www.vandykes.com/images/products/sb1200184-lg.jpg)… [yeah](http://guide.theemiratesnetwork.com/living/images/soccer%20ball%202.jpg). That’s something that shouldn’t be forgotten: it could well be that the 10-20 million illegal aliens are mainly here to suicide bomb buildings. (Just think, if each one just took out 10 to 15 Americans, this country would be all theirs.) ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459/56 "2006-05-05T19:10:29Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > I don’t think there’s much to debate. They’re here illegally, so if we’re going to uphold our laws they should be deported. Otherwise let’s get rid of the laws and let anyone in to the USA at any time. For starters, if we had the ability or inclination to deport 10 million + people, we’d have done it already. We couldn’t even if we wanted to. The prospect of walling off Mexico and patrolling the southern coast effectively will require time, money, and manpower that we’re not able or willing to spend. Ain’t gonna happen, so deporting them would be rather pointless (as thousands of _return_ illegal aliens will tell you). In my opinion, the options are 1) shut down the businesses that hire them (which would be counter-productive to politicians and businessmen alike – I don’t believe it will EVER happen) or 2) make it worth the businessman’s while to document them so we can bring them all the way into the system. I’d probably throw in some modest fines for both the workers and businesses to make up for the revenue we haven’t collected all these years. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459/57 "2006-05-05T19:31:01Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > At least one person [had the same idea.](http://wehirealiens.com/resultsall.asp) Wonderful. Thanks for the link, I’ll be utilizing that info. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459/58 "2006-05-05T19:41:15Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > [Uh](http://www.vandykes.com/images/products/sb1200184-lg.jpg)… [yeah](http://guide.theemiratesnetwork.com/living/images/soccer%20ball%202.jpg). That’s something that shouldn’t be forgotten: it could well be that the 10-20 million illegal aliens are mainly here to suicide bomb buildings. (Just think, if each one just took out 10 to 15 Americans, this country would be all theirs.) Sorry, you mistook my point. If we’re suddenly screening an extra 15 million people how much more complicated does our data mining get? How much further will the people currently doing such checks be stretched? My point was that the 9/11 hijackers were already in the system. Most of them were legal, IIRC. None of this would have helped stop a terrorist attack. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![ScoobyTX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@ScoobyTX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ScoobyTX)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459/59 "2006-05-05T19:52:43Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > POINT: They only take jobs Americans won’t take. > COUNTERPOINT: Really? Well who did these jobs before illegal immigrants? Native born Americans and legal immigrants did these jobs before, but now most of those have the education and training to do jobs that require less physical labor and/or demeaning circumstances (i.e., they write code for Apples, design buildings, shuffle paper, etc., instead of picking apples, building buildings, and shuffling mops and toilet brushes). Maybe now that much of our coding is being off-shored, we’ll have plenty of former code monkeys that will be willing to push a broom or frame a house. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459/60 "2006-05-05T20:41:57Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Most of them were legal, IIRC. None of this would have helped stop a terrorist attack. According to the information in [this article](http://www.nationalreview.com/mowbray/mowbray100902.asp), if that law was followed, 15 of the 19 wouldn’t even have been in the U.S. As I’ve said before, the first thing we should do is enforce our existiing laws. If that means we have to hire a few thousand more people to help do it, great. Law enforcement, national security and more jobs. Tha’s win, win, win. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anybody-else-here-who-just-cannot-make-up-their-mind-on-illegal-immigrants/355459.md?page=4)