Is there anyone here against gay marriage AND civil unions?

Just one last question, counselor: what happens when a (super)-majority of the people, or the legislature, overrules the Fourteenth Amendment and its (chimerical) guarantee of the “same rights” for everyone? You did get to that section of the Constitution that allows the Constitution itself to be altered by the popular will, right? Mind bender, man.

I really need not to fall into the trap of believing that people are using “constitutional” or “unconstitutional” in their actual sense, when they’re actually being used without reference to the Constitution or its content at all, but as synonyms for “I feel very strongly about this subject, and am a better person than you for it.”

I don’t understand why people opposed to gay marriage wouldn’t likewise oppose civil unions. It seems to me that civil unions are far more dangerous to the “traditional institution of marriage,” because many heterosexuals might opt for greater flexibility in their own relationships, and forgo marriage in favor of civil unions. It creates a whole new category of contractual relationships, rather than simply allowing gays to conform into a traditional institution.

Changing the constitution is not “legislation.”

It’s also irrelevant. As it stands, it is not possible to legislate against equal protection without repealing the 14th amendment. You are welcome to try, of course.

Huerta88–just so you know, the “88” designation mentioned by Diogenes is not something he pulled out of his ass. It is a fairly common designation among neo-Nazis and white supremacists. The 88 both visually and numerically (in that 8=H) represents “HH”, or “Heil Hitler”. If this is not the message you want to convey, you might consider a different name.

To the OP, I cannot think of an argument against civil unions that does not boil down to a general disdain for homosexuals. Even if you phrase it as a desire to not see their behavior or relationships normalized, you’re still just saying that you don’t like the queers.

Mace, that was what the OP sort of asked (to return to the OP, now that we’ve established that the Lawrence decision makes the conclusion in Lawrence inelecutable and unarguable, if I’m following the recent legal logic) , and my response was that I do think they would or should stand or fall together for most people. The reason you suggest wasn’t the one I identified (I thought the two “institutions” would tend to merge or be merged, thus dissolving any distinction that “anti-‘marriage’” forces deemed valuable), but it’s interesting.

I know a couple of disaffected non-custodial fathers who, while far from “progressive” in their personal views of homosexuals, are strongly in favor of homosexual civil unions, but especially “homosexual marriage.” Not for the reasons anyone here would be, though; they have the anarchic (and I’m afraid, misguided) conviction that when homosexuals begin to get “married” and “divorced,” the family court system (which they regard as impossibly liberal and biased against men) will have to throw up its hands when confronted with the prospect of two “husbands” or two “wives,” so that the court can’t simply “blame the man,” and will promptly adopt pro-male alimony and custody policies in heterosexual divorces too. I’m not really a big believer in nearly destroying an institution in order to save it (in the sense, at a minimum, that the supposedly-impossible-to-resolve same sex divorces would presumably create awful judicial logjams), but that’s yet another take on the situation.

The fact that no matter how you slice it everyone seems to be jostling for governmental patronage and favoritism via “marriage” recognition is what got me thinking that I could live in a world in which the govt. didn’t say or do anything special based on your “marriage” or whatever the hell it was, even though I personally have some sympathy for the grounds on which heterosexual marriage was originally afforded such treatment.

Try getting a free e-mail address using a popular surname (it’s you bleeding-hearts’ fault for letting all them Hispanics in; that’s a joke at my own expense there) and not having random digits tacked on the end.

Your explanation clarifies, but doesn’t make the ad hominem attack any more justifiable, and I called him on the juvenile ad Hitlerum fallacy. What a grotesquely lazy and provocative argumentative tactic to have used, positively equating the entertaining of a legal principle that the heroic Supreme Court endorsed as recently as the mid-'80s with some sort of Nazi doctrine.

To address your point: I can think of an argument not based on disdain. It is a view that the government should generally not be in the business of “recognizing” or conferring special status or advantage on any person or group of persons without there being a substantial governmental interest (i.e., an interest that will help the country as a whole function more efficiently and safely) in so doing. On this basis, I would be (and generally am) against special subsidies or tax breaks for U.S. sugar growers or people who use electric cars (but opinions can differ over whether the government has a compelling interest in satisfying a need for alternative energy or food supplies). I would be against the government giving special zoning, tax, or loan guarantee treatment to developers who build Section 8 housing vis a vis regular developers. I would be against Congress taking one second of its time (and my money) to declare National Paperclip Manufacturers’ Day, or spending money on “volunteers” through Americorps. These are all because I don’t think the causes or groups in question are worthy of special recognition or special exertion of effort and funds by the government; it doesn’t mean at all that I hate developers, or sugar growers, or paperclip manufacturers, or Americorps kids; I just don’t want the government departing from its core functions of building roads, fighting wars, and coining money in order to succor them.

Now someone long ago decided that we would go out of our way to succor heterosexual married couples by having the government intervene in their personal and religious contract with each other to the extent of officially recognizing it and granting it some status or benefit. I suspect this was deemed of substantial and compelling governmental/public value for a number of reasons (the need to provide inheritance and property rights for otherwise-powerless women, the need to encourage the population of the frontier, etc.), and that it also reflected the “governmental” objective (in a government made up largely by and for practicing Judeo Christian people, at that time) of embodying and honoring certain, yes, religiously-inspired views of the value and sanctity of marriage. Whether these rationales still hold as substantial governmental interests in favor of going out of our way for heterosexual marriage, I honestly don’t know, and have posted re: my agnosticism on this point; I don’t really know that I need civil recognition of my marriage.

All that people (or some people) are saying in resisting “gay marriage” is not that they “don’t like the queers;” it’s that they don’t like them particularly strongly enough to get their government involved in giving any out-of-the-ordinary or special imprimatur or status to their affectional or sexual relationship – which is the same conclusion they reach as to best friends and cohabiting heterosexuals.

“Extremely lucky,” if you’re Chinese. :smiley:

(C’mon, Dio, dragging speculative “88” ties into this doesn’t advance the argument one iota…)

Huerta an others, it is in the government’s best interest that people marry and remain for the most part, monagamous, and to raise children in such an environment. Heinlein’s books nothwithstanding, nobody in real life is going to change that soon.

Certainly many people have thought and still think that, and also think that the gov’t should lend a hand to that outcome in one form or another (at least as to hetero couples). I don’t know if I still think that as to hetero couples for sure; I’m pretty sure I don’t see a substantial interest justifying such a gov’t leg-up as to non-hetero couples. YMMV.

First off, I’m sorry, I’ve been sort of avoiding the whole civil union discussion, so I might appear a bit ignorant. Apologies in advance.

What reasons are there for gays wanting a governmentally sanctioned marriage or civil union? I ask because my answer to the OP is “it depends.” As far as I know, gays want marriage rights. They want the same rights that married couples have. Well, if this is true, see the thing is that heterosexual marriages are given rights because it’s good for the country. More married men and women means more healthy families. (Let’s skip the argument about what constitutes a “healthy” family in this discussion.) More gay couples doesn’t really help society. If you have an example that shows that gay couples do help society then please share. Gay marriages certainly don’t add to the population. Sure many married gay couples desire children and then adopt, which is supremely excellent for our society. (Again, let’s not argue about what makes “healthy” families in this discussion.) But anyway, my point is that if all you want is the government saying, okay, yes you two are a loving couple, then fine. And I understand wanting certain rights like inheritence rights. But if the gay couples want to be married only to get tax relief, then I am totally against that kind of gay union, marriage or civil, because the couples are getting from our society without giving back. Any non-angry arguments I’m willing to listen to. I’m not judging (I’m trying anyway) so I hope that if you have opinions opposite of mine you will be nice. All other arguments will be ignored.

Oh! The argument about the 14th amentment is pretty weak. Every person in America has a right to get married. But like abortion’s argument about when life begins, this argument doesn’t make clear what marriage is. Our government is (mostly) pretty clear about what marriage is, a union between man and woman. You can get married, but only to someone of the opposite sex. You don’t have a “right” to marry someone of the same sex, as far as the government is concerned.

That same argument was used in favor of laws banning interracial marriage. You still had the “right” to get married-you just had to marry someone of the same race.

It was a lousy argument then, and it’s a lousy one now.

There are plenty of people who marry and don’t have children. Some don’t want kids, and some can’t have them. Again-are they “getting something from society without giving something back?” :dubious:

But sexual preference has never been held to be a “protected category” (up till last year) even under the more liberal strands of S.C. jurisdprudence, whereas there can be no doubt that the authors of the Fourteenth Amendment had race (and possibly only race) squarely in mind in drafting the equal protection clause, given when and where they were compelled to draft it. Certainly to any realistic person it is difficult to imagine that they, or any jurist or legislator who wrote about equal protection after them for many a long year, spent a moment contemplating that the Amendment’s protections (a) would extend to a protected class of homosexuals (as opposed to blacks); and (b) thus extending, would make it “unequal protection of similarly-situated parties” for the state to deny that class the right to sodomy (or to “same sex marriage”), while allowing that class the equal right to “marriage” as historically and contemporaneously defined by the state.

Legally speaking, the anti-miscegenation argument was very “lousy” as to point (a) for sure, less obviously constitutionally forbidden as to point (b), at least on the historical record. The anti-same-sex-marriage argument is nowhere near as constitutionally ridiculous on point (a), and point (b), well, that’s what people are arguing for/against.

Guinastasia, it’s interesting that you mention children. Here’s another example of where the state (problematically in my view) indulges in gratuitous “sanctioning” or recognition of what are essentially interpersonal choices. As I’ve mentioned before, they do this with heterosexual marriage, as an exception to the usual rule that the government has no busines conferring benefits or special status on random (or not so random) groups of persons based on their status. Much of society, though, was apparently swayed to make an exception and allow the government to spend (waste?) it’s time and resources to aid/lionize heterosexual marriage (but not in the interest of, say, handing out federal Best Friend Medals or congressional Grandma’s Little Angel free parking passes). For the same reason, government’s also chosen to privilege having children, in some respects, by recognizing parents’ legal status as “next friend,” but also by spending cold hard cash on tax exemptions and child care/tuition credits for rugrats. At least as to childless married couples, the government has judged that they would be “getting something from society but not giving back” if they got these benefits without having rendered the (dubious) societal benefits of popping out the ankle biters who are the predicate for the benefits – and thus the childless couple can never get such benefits if they choose to remain in a childless union. Unconstitutional? Rotsa ruck winning that battle, even though this policy likewise penalizes people for decisions squarely founded in sexual/reproductive choice.

Are there other cases in which the government singles out particular groups for special rewards/recognition based on the character of their relationship or of their conduct? Sure, lots. Ireland (not subject to the U.S. Constitution, but imagine the U.S. adopted a similar law) makes (made?) artists’ earnings free. You say you’re a carpet installer, not a sculptor? Tough luck, you’re paying full freight. You studied engineering? Great, that’s a special skill that enhances society’s productivity, here’s your H1B visa, go to the head of the line for lawful entry to the U.S. You took courses in music appreciation? Yeah, we’ll get back to you around 2020. Or . . .ah, Mr. Immigrant, what a pleasure to see you. Did you by chance choose to marry a lovely lady? Yes? Is she from your home country? Oh, sorry to hear that, you’ll both have to wait for citizenship. Wait, I misheard you, she’s from the U.S.? My mistake – you’re a citizen (or will be soon), with all the attendant benefits. What’s that you say? Your “wife” is actually a man to whom you were joined in a homosexual relationship customary to your tribe, and with whom you’re having rampant homosexual sex? Sir, I’m sorry, that’s not the kind of “marriage” that confers marital status under our laws. But wait . . . I misread your application and that’s not the wife you were referring to at all; here you specify Ms. Bloggs, whom you legally married in St. Patrick’s Cathedral, because it’s also customary in your culture for men to have (unconsummated) heterosexual marriages while living on the “down low” with their homosexual partner? Well sir, as long as you can show us the marriage certificate for the heterosexual marriage, we’re not in the business of policing your downlow conduct.

The point is that any number of chosen (or even not-“chosen”) combinations of affiliational and conduct-based status could substantially affect Mr. Immigrant in that example, depriving him (or granting him) preferential treatment depending on the concatenation of circumstances. Either we say the state has no business ever conferring special economic/immigration/status rights on persons based on their personal affiliation (which, from the example above, is very clearly a policy question, not a preferential mandate, or our entire system of family, tax, and immigration law would be facially unconstitutional). Or we recognize that we’ve always singled out “special” benefits-receiving classes, and try to persuade a majority of our fellow citizens that “homosexual marriage” ought to join those classes.

In all of your babblings you still can’t express a coherent reason why same-sex couples should be excluded from equal protection. Your posts contain a lot of words but almost no content.

After wasting a life away posting 10,000 times to a cyberspace message board, if that’s how I chose to live my life, I’d hope one would’ve learned a bit more about etiquette, or basic argumentation. “Babblings.” Really, falls short of your earlier standard (your opponents are all “morons” and Hitlerites, remember?).

I can see my actually reading the Fourteenth Amendment and cases and calling you on not having done so still rankles, but you really ought to try it sometime, at least if you’re essaying to hold forth on what it legally mandates.

Not sure you read my posts either, but hey, there’s always that elusive 11,000th post of your own to rack up. Your continued use of the constitutional phrase “equal protection,” without understanding or showing how the Constitution meant to apply or does apply to homosexual couples at all, shows we’ve made no progress on the question-begging front. If the Constitution didn’t provide such rights (and its a remarkably focused and narrow document, not some pinata that can continue to be banged to yield that elusive last piece of chicle), then we can’t agree to “exclude” or “dis-exclude” them into a clause of the Constitution that has no relevance to them simply by clicking our heels and agreeing that we’d all be fine progressive fellows if only that’s what the Constitution meant.

If you’re using equal protection in a non-constitutional, policy-based argument for why homosexual couples necessarily should enjoy the special status the government spends (wastes?) its time conferring on married straights and their kids, etc., fine; I’ve also (in direct response to the OP, which you may not have read either, to perfect the trifecta) given policy reasons for why I don’t know the government needs to be exerting itself in this direction. If you don’t agree with these rationales, it is not because they are incoherent, but because you are still at the stage of forensic development where those who argue against you can only be motivated by intrinsic stupidity and evil.

No, he has. You may not agree with it, but he quite cleary responded to you.

No he hasn’t.

Also sprach Cicero, IIRC.

I truly want to buy Huerta a copyeditor’s services, because if he’s answered Dio’s question, it’s been buried under mounds and mounds of superfluous words that muddle whatever point may have been there at some point.

The best thing I can fathom out of that last stream of consciousness is that Huerta says that the onus is on supporters of SSM/CU to prove that “equal protection” means, well, equal protection. He’s begging for people to get into tautologies to try to prove something that is plain on its face. Is there something I missed?

Exactly. Underneath all the words, all he’s really saying is that “I don’t want the government to say that being gay is normal.” Or to put it more precisely, he’s saying that he wants the government to say that homosexuality is not normal by passing discriminatory legislation.

He also consistently has the equal protection argument backwards and seems to think that homosexuals have an obligation to prove that they deserve equal protection rather than the 'phobes having an obligation to prove that they don’t.