# Is there anything gramatically wrong with this sentence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 22, 2008, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381 "2008-12-22T23:06:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381/21 "2008-12-23T21:49:38Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > It’s _never_ all right to put a comma before an ‘and’ as it’s shown in the OP. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381/22 "2008-12-23T23:19:46Z")
> [@Hunter\_Hawk](#): > > Cite? Second the sentiment behind the cite request. (Don’t second the cite request because I don’t believe you can find authoritative cites when it comes to grammatical prescriptions.) > [@](#): > > I was one of the youngest and one of only three Americans invited to participate in the seminar **Jessie Leigh** would seem to be saying the abovequoted is better than > [@](#): > > I was one of the youngest, and one of only three Americans, invited to participate in the seminar I can not bring myself to see the first as better than the second. The first I have to read twice to get, the second only once. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381/23 "2008-12-23T23:51:06Z")
Oh, one other thing–depending on how much you wanted to emphasize the “Americans” phrase, another possibility would be to put em dashes around it: “I was one of the youngest participants–and one of only three Americans–invited to participate in the seminar.” ---
**Author:** ![Gleena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b3f665/32.png) [@Gleena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gleena)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381/24 "2008-12-24T00:42:50Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Nice work! 🙂 > > I should have been more explicit. Your ‘and’ began the concluding phrase of the sentence, **and** that’s okay. It’s _never_ all right to put a comma before an ‘and’ as it’s shown in the OP. No, I don’t agree. Show your work here, please. Thirded the request for a cite. > [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Well, it’s grammatically correct, but… it sucks! (Nothing personal intended, I’m simply illustrating a point.) :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381/25 "2008-12-24T01:03:33Z")
Commas indicating a restrictive phrase “I was one of the youngest, and one of only three Americans, invited to participate in the seminar.” Lack of commas indicating a non-restrictive phrase: “I was one of the youngest and one of only three Americans invited to participate in the seminar.” I prefer the former of the two, for whether or not the phrase is restrictive, it is a rather long phrase and it begins with a coordinating conjunction, both of which usually use punctuation. Aside from the possible non-restrictive phrase issue, I see no reason why a comma should not be used with the coordinating conjunction in the “I was one of the youngest, and one of only three Americans, invited to participate in the seminar.” Put me in the camp requesting a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381/26 "2008-12-24T01:12:31Z")
> [@Gleena](#): > > ‘I was a small child, and younger than my brother, when I discovered I could beat him to a pulp.’ I think that this is an excellent sentence, for aside from being gramatically correct, the use of the parenthetical phrase indicates a mood of introspection and reflection. When the structure of a sentence reflects the mood of the content, you have a first rate sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381/27 "2008-12-24T01:17:11Z")
Two days before Christmas\*\*, and\*\* here we are are discussing punctuation. Shouldn’t we be showing pics of our [cats](http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/ShipsCat.html) to each other? ---
**Author:** ![Gleena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b3f665/32.png) [@Gleena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gleena)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381/28 "2008-12-24T01:29:51Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I think that this is an excellent sentence, for aside from being gramatically correct, the use of the parenthetical phrase indicates a mood of introspection and reflection. When the structure of a sentence reflects the mood of the content, you have a first rate sentence. Why thank you. FTR, I have no brothers, but my general temperment indicates that had I had one pulp beating may have ensued. I reward you with a picture of my kitty! [Samrys](http://www.flickr.com/photos/liquidgrace/258305265/) ---
**Author:** ![Lionne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Lionne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lionne)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381/29 "2008-12-24T01:31:44Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > I can’t believe no one has treated the title as a question about itself, and corrected the error in it, yet. I see what you did there. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381/30 "2008-12-24T01:47:13Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Two days before Christmas\*\*, and\*\* here we are are discussing punctuation. > > Shouldn’t we be showing pics of our [cats](http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/ShipsCat.html) to each other? Punctuation is good. [Cats are better.](http://www.flickr.com/photos/7971087@N03/3095053658/) ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381/31 "2009-01-04T18:34:40Z")
Bumping this thread since **Jesse Leigh** seems to have reappeared and there are a few people awaiting her input. ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381/32 "2009-01-04T21:25:57Z")
The problem here, she said to me, is that questions of grammatical correctness are often masturbatory exercises that really don’t get anyone laid. The question that all writers need to ask is not, “Is it correct?” but, “Is this the best way to get my point across?” As we’ve discussed many times here, questions of prescription, such as, “Is this correct?” are bound to come to dead ends, or draws. ---
**Author:** ![Kat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b19c9b/32.png) [@Kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kat)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381/33 "2009-01-04T21:47:29Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > I can’t believe no one has treated the title as a question about itself, and corrected the error in it, yet. That’s not a grammatical error, though. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381/34 "2009-01-04T22:09:52Z")
> [@CC](#): > > The problem here, she said to me, is that questions of grammatical correctness are often masturbatory exercises that really don’t get anyone laid. The question that all writers need to ask is not, “Is it correct?” but, “Is this the best way to get my point across?” As we’ve discussed many times here, questions of prescription, such as, “Is this correct?” are bound to come to dead ends, or draws. Yup, exactly. In fact, I think the original sentence is optimal. Adding a second “and of” detracts from conciseness, which is more important for clarity than is parallelism, in this case. Removing commas adds confusion. Em dashes may be more “correct,” but they seem like overkill.\* And to the person who says it should be “one of the younger”: that’s just crazy. “One of the younger” means he was fairly young, maybe in the youngest 1/3. “One of the youngest” means he was very young, at least in the youngest 1/10. This distinction is very important–it shouldn’t be erased out of misguided aesthetics. \*Although maybe they should be used more often. I just used one, and it was great. Often, though, they’re just too big. There should be a dash in length between an ordinary en one and an often gargantuan em. Also, it needs its own keyboard button. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381/35 "2009-01-05T01:13:21Z")
> [@gitfiddle](#): > > “I was one of the youngest participants, and only three Americans, invited to participate in the seminar.” > > Everyone so far has said that I must write “…and one of only three Americans…” I do this for a living and it is not correct to put ellipsis marks (…) in that sentence. Ellipsis is used when you leave part of the sentence off at the beginning or the end of a sentence: You know what they say, birds of a feather… It is used mainly when something is obviously implied or a person tails off at the end of a sentence. This is commonly seen in legal depositions: Q. Were you involved in that felony? A. Not really, well… Q. Yes or no? If I was transcribing a deposition I would write it as follows: " I was one of the youngest participants, and only one of three Americans, But in common usage it is fine with or with the commas. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381/36 "2009-01-05T02:03:58Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > I do this for a living and it is not correct to put ellipsis marks (…) in that sentence. I don’t think **gitfiddle** meant he/she would use the ellipses - I think it was just a highlighting of the intended change without repeating the entire sentence. ---
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381/37 "2009-01-05T02:22:24Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > I don’t think **gitfiddle** meant he/she would use the ellipses - I think it was just a highlighting of the intended change without repeating the entire sentence. And…you would be right. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381/38 "2009-01-05T23:54:01Z")
> [@Hunter\_Hawk](#): > > Oh, one other thing–depending on how much you wanted to emphasize the “Americans” phrase, another possibility would be to put em dashes around it: > > “I was one of the youngest participants–and one of only three Americans–invited to participate in the seminar.” But in that version, and in the original one with comments, you could remove that part, thus leaving: > [@](#): > > “I was one of the youngest participants invited to participate in the seminar.” The repetition of participate/participant seems a bit awkward, though it’s not an error. Oh, and here are [my cats studying the grammar of this sentence.](http://www.scc.net/~t-bonham/paulshel.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381/39 "2009-01-06T07:55:39Z")
> [@](#): > > **jakesteele** : If I was transcribing a deposition I would write it as follows: > > " I was one of the youngest participants, and only one of three Americans, You’ve changed the meaning of the sentence by moving the word _only_. Besides, it goes without saying that you were only one person. There were _only_ three Americans invited and you were one of them. You weren’t the only one. ---
**Author:** ![johnspartan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a183cd/32.png) [@johnspartan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnspartan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381/40 "2009-01-07T18:55:38Z")
“I was one of the youngest participants, and only three Americans, invited to participate in the seminar.” It is incorrect unless you are by yourself somehow three Americans. Because as it’s currently structured it says you were one of the youngest and you were three Americans. It could be re-written as “I was one of the youngest participants, and I was only three Americans, that were invited to participate in the seminar”, and you’re not changing what the sentence establishes. But technically it’s not grammatically incorrect, in that the subject / verb agreement is fine and all that. It just is only LOGICALLY sound if you’re three people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-gramatically-wrong-with-this-sentence/478381.md?page=3)