# Is there anything wrong with "class warfare"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349 "2012-09-10T23:03:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/21 "2012-09-11T18:37:19Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > We are all equal _under the law_. Real equality means that as a free citizen you have the same legal rights as a billionaire, even if you are poor. A nice goal. In this world the rich have access to the best lawyers, while the poor get Legal Aid if they are lucky. If they are really lucky they get lawyers who don’t fall asleep during their murder trials. So we don’t quite have that yet. > [@](#): > > The next step up from there is equality of opportunity - making sure that you don’t have to be royalty or part of a special caste in order to amass capital, work in a job you are qualified for, etc. An important part of equality of opportunity is access to education. We are getting further from this as the cost of public colleges increases due to lack of support from the states. It is obviously easier to amass capital if you are in the caste of children of rich people. So you can borrow from your parents, as Mitt said. So we don’t have this either. > [@](#): > > What class warfare does is seek equality of _outcome_. People who start from the same station in life as you, but climb higher for whatever reason, are now the ‘enemy’. They’re bad people by definition, because they’re rich, and the state should take part of what they earn and give it to you in the interest of ‘fairness’. And here is the strawman. Adding a few percentage points to the tax rates of the highest bracket is not nearly the same as demanding equality of outcomes. In fact, this money can be used to fund the access to legal help and education that would provide true equality in the two cases you mention. The the right is so dead set against this shows they really don’t care about any kind of equality. As for “enemies” - people don’t hate the rich who they feel earned it. Bill Gates is a popular hero. So was Steve Jobs. Not so well liked are bankers who nearly destroyed the financial system and still got big bonuses, CEOs who lay off tons of people to save money but get big raises, and guys like the CEO of our gas company who presided over a dysfunctional system which led to a neighborhood blowing up, spend money meant for pipeline upgrades to improve the bottom, and got fired with an over $30 million parting gift. > [@](#): > > This kind of ‘equality’ turns real equality on its head. You and I aren’t equal if you don’t work and receive a check from the government every month while I am taxed more to provide that check to you. We’re not equal if you get special tax breaks that I don’t get because you’re in a different socioeconomic group. We’re not equal if you’re given hiring or admissions preferences because your skin color is different than mine. I definitely agree with you about the tax breaks. The socioeconomic class called “the rich” get a hell of a lot more tax breaks than the rest of us, and shown by their relatively low tax rate. I don’t know about you, but I’m a lot happier working and paying taxes to support those without (and having plenty left over for me) than I would be collecting that check which sure as hell isn’t big enough to have much fun on. If I were rich I’d suspect I’d never really notice the tax bite we have now, unless my name was Scrooge McDuck. As for affirmative action, that was designed to make up for 100 years of minorities getting excluded from jobs and advancement. Real affirmative action is reaching out to those you excluded before, either directly or subtly. When I went to MIT there were about 16% women. Now there is over 50%. Did women get smarter all of a sudden? I think not, they went out and tried to recruit. (And judging from the resumes I get the average student today is a lot smarter than we were.) Affirmative action, done right, increases your candidate pool and gives you better people. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/22 "2012-09-11T18:41:01Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > On the other hand every dollar that is extracted by taxes comes with the threat of force behind it. Thing is, every dollar that remains in the pocket of a rich person (or a poor person, but more remain in the pocket of a rich person) remains there with the threat of force, too. When we use state force to make property ownership static instead of its natural state of flowing to the most bloodthirsty person, we’re doing something unnatural (but wise). When we use that same state force to redistribute property, what we’re doing is no more unnatural than when we use it to protect property ownership. In both cases, the state’s force is violating the natural dynamic of wealth. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/23 "2012-09-11T19:02:56Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > As used by the right-wing, “class warfare” seems to mean > > … > My question concerns the basic premise: I thought we were supposed to have a classless society, everyone being equal, and all that. So how can you have class warfare if you don’t have any classes of people? It depends what you mean by “class”. We certainly do have different socioeconomic strata in this country. That is not the same as a fixed “class” society. Derek Jeter is in the top 1% of wealthy individuals. He was not, however, born into the New York Yankees. What is “wrong” with “class warfare” is that it presumes that people are stuck in whatever lot in life they are born into. The perception is that wealth isn’t “earned”. It’s just inhereted or arbitrarily bestowed upon a chosen few. Those who don’t have wealth, instead of trying to better themselves through education, innovation and entrepreneurship, feel justified in seeking out ways to rob, swindle or legislate wealth from those who have it And those who have wealth spend an increasing amount on security and detaching themselves from the rest of society. It’s not an ideal situation. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/24 "2012-09-11T19:05:26Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > In that situation, would you say you are of a higher class than I am? A better class? > > What would you say my class is, in that situation? Or your class? Just thought I’d repeat my questions to Sam Stone, in case he feels like being more responsive than any other Stone. My response to his points is that we will someday have to see how much he believes, or other right-wingers believe (since both \*\*Sam \*\*and I and all may have departed this earth), in democracy. I say this because when we discuss tax policy, and redistribution of wealth, and even confiscation of wealth, as he would have it, we are merely discussing details. Tax is inherently redistributative, and if the masses ever acquire self-awareness, we could see a day when Americans freely vote to have tax rates that will make the **Sam Stone** s of this world beg tearfully for another leader like Barack Obama. Nowhere in the Constiitution is it written that the top tax rate should be 35% for the wealthy, or 40% for the middle-class, or anything of the kind–my question is how loyal the **Sam Stone** s of the future will be to the U.S. when that day comes. I suspect (and I know that Sam is a Canadian citizen) that his patriotism ends on the day that he learns he has been outvoted. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/25 "2012-09-11T19:30:29Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It depends what you mean by “class”. We certainly do have different socioeconomic strata in this country. That is not the same as a fixed “class” society. Derek Jeter is in the top 1% of wealthy individuals. He was not, however, born into the New York Yankees. > What is “wrong” with “class warfare” is that it presumes that people are stuck in whatever lot in life they are born into. The perception is that wealth isn’t “earned”. It’s just inhereted or arbitrarily bestowed upon a chosen few. > > Those who don’t have wealth, instead of trying to better themselves through education, innovation and entrepreneurship, feel justified in seeking out ways to rob, swindle or legislate wealth from those who have it > > And those who have wealth spend an increasing amount on security and detaching themselves from the rest of society. > > It’s not an ideal situation. In fact, as opposed to what we get taught in the US, we have less mobility than they do in Canada or Europe. [Cite.](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?pagewanted=all). And this is not a leftist concept. > [@](#): > > But many researchers have reached a conclusion that turns conventional wisdom on its head: Americans enjoy less economic mobility than their peers in Canada and much of Western Europe. The mobility gap has been widely discussed in academic circles, but a sour season of mass unemployment and street protests has moved the discussion toward center stage. > > Former Senator Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania, a Republican candidate for president, warned this fall that movement “up into the middle income is actually greater, the mobility in Europe, than it is in America.” National Review, a conservative thought leader, wrote that “most Western European and English-speaking nations have higher rates of mobility.” Even Representative Paul D. Ryan, a Wisconsin Republican who argues that overall mobility remains high, recently wrote that “mobility from the very bottom up” is “where the United States lags behind.” ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/26 "2012-09-11T19:34:03Z")
> [@moonshot925](#): > > It is the liberal socialists who a trying to steal wealth from those who have earned it and give to those who have not. > > That is class warfare. A majority of wealthy people in the US inherited their wealth. How hard do you have to work to be born into wealth? How did those people ‘earn it’ ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/27 "2012-09-11T19:42:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Thing is, every dollar that remains in the pocket of a rich person (or a poor person, but more remain in the pocket of a rich person) remains there with the threat of force, too. When we use state force to make property ownership static instead of its natural state of flowing to the most bloodthirsty person, we’re doing something unnatural (but wise). When we use that same state force to redistribute property, what we’re doing is no more unnatural than when we use it to protect property ownership. In both cases, the state’s force is violating the natural dynamic of wealth. This is a really important point I think. We protect property rights in the US, that benefits the wealthy WAAAY more disproportionately than it does the poor, because the wealthy have so much more to lose. ---
**Author:** ![mmmbeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@mmmbeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmbeer)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/28 "2012-09-11T19:44:30Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Just thought I’d repeat my questions to Sam Stone, in case he feels like being more responsive than any other Stone. > > My response to his points is that we will someday have to see how much he believes, or other right-wingers believe (since both \*\*Sam \*\*and I and all may have departed this earth), in democracy. > > There are a few of us who remember that we live in a Republic. > > I say this because when we discuss tax policy, and redistribution of wealth, and even confiscation of wealth, as he would have it, we are merely discussing details. Tax is inherently redistributative, and if the masses ever acquire self-awareness, we could see a day when Americans freely vote to have tax rates that will make the **Sam Stone** s of this world beg tearfully for another leader like Barack Obama. Nowhere in the Constiitution is it written that the top tax rate should be 35% for the wealthy, or 40% for the middle-class, or anything of the kind–my question is how loyal the **Sam Stone** s of the future will be to the U.S. when that day comes. I suspect (and I know that Sam is a Canadian citizen) that his patriotism ends on the day that he learns he has been outvoted. Taxation isn’t redistributive. It is a collection procedure. There is nothing redistributive about taking money from your citizens. The redistribution part is when the government starts giving it back out to certain groups, which they are not authorized to do. Someone way back when (who I don’t feel like looking up) said “a democracy can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury.” This is why democracy was not chosen by our founders. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/29 "2012-09-11T20:05:45Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > In fact, as opposed to what we get taught in the US, we have less mobility than they do in Canada or Europe. That would not surprise me. Wealth is strongly tied to employment which is strongly tied to education. And higher education has become extremely expensive in this country. Needing to come up with over $100,000 to get a chance at a $70,000 a year job is a very real class barrier. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/30 "2012-09-11T21:01:57Z")
> [@mmmbeer](#): > > Taxation isn’t redistributive. It is a collection procedure. There is nothing redistributive about taking money from your citizens. The redistribution part is when the government starts giving it back out to certain groups, which they are not authorized to do. I’m sure you can cite a Supreme Court decision which says that the government cannot give money to certain groups. > [@](#): > > Someone way back when (who I don’t feel like looking up) said “a democracy can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury.” This is why democracy was not chosen by our founders. Someone else said “a democracy can only exist until the rich discover that they can buy elections and politicians.” Actually, that would be me. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/31 "2012-09-11T21:11:34Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Someone else said “a democracy can only exist until the rich discover that they can buy elections and politicians.” Actually, that would be me. [/QUOTE] So, what ‘someone else’ is saying is that a democracy can and has never existed in the history of human kind. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![moonshot925](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@moonshot925](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moonshot925)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/32 "2012-09-11T22:00:21Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > In fact, as opposed to what we get taught in the US, we have less mobility than they do in Canada or Europe. But you forgot to mention that we (USA) have higher per capita GDP than Western Europe and Canada. > **[List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita)** > > A country's gross domestic product (GDP) at purchasing power parity (PPP) per capita is the PPP value of all final goods and services produced within an economy in a given year, divided by the average (or mid-year) population for the same year. This is similar to nominal GDP per capita but adjusted for the cost of living in each country. > In 2023, the estimated average GDP per capita (PPP) of all of the countries was Int$22,452.\[a\] For rankings regarding wealth, see list of countries by weal... ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/33 "2012-09-11T22:10:12Z")
> [@mmmbeer](#): > > Taxation isn’t redistributive. It is a collection procedure. There is nothing redistributive about taking money from your citizens. But there is the second you spend that money on _anything_. Roads, army, firefighters or corn subsidies, it doesn’t really matter : public spending always benefits one chunk of the population more than one other. So, unless you’re arguing that your founders envisioned a blessedly simple tax system where money would be dutifully collected from citizens then promptly dumped down the Marianas Trench\* ; then your axioms are pretty much self-defeating. - which, incidentally, would still be redistributive in that it would prop up the currently ailing ferrying-large-amounts-of-currency-by-ship industry. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/34 "2012-09-11T22:52:33Z")
> [@moonshot925](#): > > But you forgot to mention that we (USA) have higher per capita GDP than Western Europe and Canada. > > [List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita) Can you explain the point you are trying to make here? Why did you specify Western Europe when the person you are responding to didn’t? Did you happen to notice 2 European countries fall above the US? Am I to take from this Qatar has a better social class structure than the US? Is this just USA USA we’re number 1 er ah 7? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/35 "2012-09-12T00:09:47Z")
> [@XT](#): > > So, what ‘someone else’ is saying is that a democracy can and has never existed in the history of human kind. 😛 And it also means that democracy works best under a dictatorship where the poor don’t get to oppress the rich with their demands. Must be true - look at the high turn out in the Communist countries, and how damn popular their leaders were! Though what I said also implies that democracy was safe before they invented TV. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/36 "2012-09-12T00:20:50Z")
> [@moonshot925](#): > > But you forgot to mention that we (USA) have higher per capita GDP than Western Europe and Canada. > > [List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita) High per capita GDP probably makes the guy working two jobs and hoping he doesn’t get sick because he has no health insurance feel great. Denmark is not far behind us - but when I was in Copenhagen earlier this summer I saw no pan handlers, no poverty, no dirt, and no one worrying about doctor bills. My daughters’ German boyfriend, who is not exactly rich, finished university and a Masters program in business with no college debt. I think the distribution of this wealth has something to do with quality of life. You think the average person in Qatar has it better than us? ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/37 "2012-09-12T01:31:26Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > On the other hand every dollar that is extracted by taxes comes with the threat of force behind it. If not from the government, then from your neighbours who pay their taxes and will resent you if you don’t pay yours. Being social animals and living in communities brings certain shared responsibilities. And to put it as melodramatically as you did, every dollar extracted from you by private enterprise is done under the threat of force, too. Try shopping for groceries or filling your gas tank without paying for it. ---
**Author:** ![moonshot925](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@moonshot925](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moonshot925)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/38 "2012-09-12T01:35:16Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > High per capita GDP probably makes the guy working two jobs and hoping he doesn’t get sick because he has no health insurance feel great. > Denmark is not far behind us - but when I was in Copenhagen earlier this summer I saw no pan handlers, no poverty, no dirt, and no one worrying about doctor bills. My daughters’ German boyfriend, who is not exactly rich, finished university and a Masters program in business with no college debt. I think the distribution of this wealth has something to do with quality of life. You think the average person in Qatar has it better than us? The average American person has higher income and consumes 33% more than the average Danish person. Overall, Americans have a higher standard of living. [http://www.oecd.org/std/pricesandpurchasingpowerparitiesppp/39653689.pdf](http://www.oecd.org/std/pricesandpurchasingpowerparitiesppp/39653689.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/39 "2012-09-12T02:59:33Z")
> [@moonshot925](#): > > The average American person has higher income and consumes 33% more than the average Danish person. Overall, Americans have a higher standard of living. > > [http://www.oecd.org/std/pricesandpurchasingpowerparitiesppp/39653689.pdf](http://www.oecd.org/std/pricesandpurchasingpowerparitiesppp/39653689.pdf) Tell that to people who live in the projects and slums in New Orleans/Detroit/St. Louis, or to people who live in the poorer parts of Appalachia. Dude, NOBODY in Denmark lives like the poorest in this country. Do you not know that, or are you being disingenuous? ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/40 "2012-09-12T03:05:55Z")
> [@moonshot925](#): > > The wealthy pay the lions share of federal income tax. > > So they should benefit the most from an income tax cut. They also benefit most from the nations infrastructure, so they should pay MORE tax.😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349.md?page=3)